Something seems amiss with the combat

[korn469]

I'm not sure if this is a bug or if everything is working properly. Anyways I have a fairly buff warrior (combat 5, shock 2, march, and orthus's axe), who was killed by a decently buff scout (combat 4 as far as I can tell). I took a picture of the combat odds, and they seem way off. Can anybody explain to me what's going on?

 

[korn469]

Also it seemed fairly easy to kill orthus, so here are the combat odds associated with that.

 

[arcaner]

It is generally agreed that there is something wrong with combat, especially on defense. I am wondering where one would need to look to find the source of the problem. What XML's pythons and SDK parts are called when determining combat odds, and when determining the results of a combat?

With all the pairs of eyes in the Dev team, and the community at large I'm sure we'll be able to find the error.

 

[TheBoatman]

It seems like the combat promotions are being subtracted not added to strength.

 

[Sarisin]

It seems like the combat promotions are being subtracted not added to strength.

I saw this comment in the .23 Balance thread, but, again, my units that I mentioned there had other promotions such as Orcish, Woodsman (defensive), Hills Defense, etc. and they had more strength than the barb Lizardmen that seem to be doing the damage. Also, most of the units were on terrain-friendly tiles and fortified. So, I think it might be something more than the combat promotions.

 

[Chip56]

I will post here again what I have already posted in the bug thread:

Combat 1-5 is bugged while defending:
This crossbowman has iron weapons, sheut stones, combat two and 1first strike. (8 normal strength + 1 other)

Spoiler :

I believe combat is bugged because of the sheut stones:
Here a imp (3 normal strength +1 other) with combat

Spoiler :

I had a short look at some other units of Hyborem and every unit that had sheut stones didn't show the bonuses from combat 1-5.
Those without sheut stones worked.

I just had a short look at combat odds involving combat 1-5
Here is what I have found out so far:
Since Onedreamer tested sheut stones after my post I started a new game to test em too:

These were given it by worldbuilder:

This one normally by building:

So it is not sheut stones in specific that screws up.
Then I went back to my Basium game to have a further look:
I found these little imp to volunteer:

Now the combat odds:

Seems neither the combat nor the empower were taken into account.
But in fact they are!
Look here what happend after I removed the empower and the summon promotion:

Then I removed combat 1:

Some nice little -50%
(I put some new angels around him to make sure that no promotion from my death angel was taken into account.)

I wonder what is wrong with the promotions.
It really hurts to loose basium because your promotions dont work

 

[Kael]

I keep trying to setup a situation where I can reproduce any incorrect combat odds but I cant seem to do it. If anyone can post a save game with an incorrect combat odds calculation I would love to see it.

 

[Chip56]

Here you go:
The ones next to the angel of death are bugged.
http://uploaded.to/?id=6m3n3l

 

[korn469]

In this save a scout and a warrior kill my Orthus's Axe wielding buff warrior.

 

[korn469]

Also could somebody explain the math behind these combat odds to me? My warrior (str 3) has combat 5 (+100%) and shock I (+40% melee), while Orthus (str 5) has combat 2 (+40%) and his axe (+1 fire). It says the odds are 6.00 to 4.28. How did the game come up with those numbers for combat odds?

One other thing, why does desert have a -25% defense bonus and flood plains doesn't?

 

[psychoak]

Deserts are very different terrain from flood plains. One has very sparse vegetation, the other excellent for farming. You can't defend a desert outpost in sifting sand with no source of water anywhere near as well as you can in what amounts to a grassland.

For the combat odds, 6-4.28 isn't your odds, just the comparative strength. If you tried to beat up someone twice your strength, your odds would not be 1-2. They have comparative percent chances and strength based damage that adds up, 100% isn't mathematically correct, but you have rounds and each unit either hits or misses. Somewhere there's a post here with them worked out.

To go with chip's, a normal game with no world builder additions. Just hit end turn, the knight attacks, the combat two paladin dies with no bonuses from combat and a -50 from the knights. In addition to his example, the combat two knight doesn't show any bonuses either on defense, including his holy shield. If you move to the next hill, you'll get more guys worked over by the defenders of the next city down, significantly less powerful flurries and berserkers will kill that beautiful combat 5, guerilla 1, commando paladin.

Also, yes, I know, my defenses in my cities . .. .. .. .ing suck, it can't be helped. I have to kill everything on offense anyways, so having defense hasn't been useful...

 

[Kael]

Here you go:
The ones next to the angel of death are bugged.
http://uploaded.to/?id=6m3n3l

Those aren't bugged. The longbowman has +40% combat because of his combat bonus and -40% because he just crossed a river, which equates to 0%.

It would be nice if the game showed a -40% river cross penalty, but it just adds it into the calculation.

 

[Chip56]

Those aren't bugged. The longbowman has +40% combat because of his combat bonus and -40% because he just crossed a river, which equates to 0%.

????
From this position he does not cross the river.

ALso the game shows the penalty in the mouse over
I moved him a bit so that he has to cross the river:

 

[Kael]

You didnt move the longbowman, you moved the angel. The longbowman crossed a river on his last turn so he has a -40% combat bonus on him that won't be removed until his next turn which is canceling out his +40% from his combat bonuses.

Yes, river attack penalty is displayed on attack but it isnt on defence (its just added in as part of a cumulative bonus). It makes it a little confusing, but there is no error in your save.

 

[Chip56]

And here are the combat logs:
From the original position:

From the moved position, where he has to cross the river:


Dont ask me why it shows a +40 for river crossing in the first case and two in the second.

 

[Chip56]

You didnt move the longbowman, you moved the angel. The longbowman crossed a river on his last turn so he has a -40% combat bonus on him that won't be removed until his next turn which is canceling out his +40% from his combat bonuses.

Thats the first time i heard of river crossing penalty on the defense.
You never stop to learn new things...
Was that always so?

 

[Kael]

Thats the first time i heard of river crossing penalty on the defense.
You never stop to learn new things...
Was that always so?

Its always been that way, its a vanilla thing. Units that cross rivers are flagged, that flag is cleared at the begining of a players turn. If they have the flag they get -40% to combat.

 

[Chip56]

Its always been that way, its a vanilla thing. Units that cross rivers are flagged, that flag is cleared at the begining of a players turn. If they have the flag they get -40% to combat.

When it has alwas been so than its bugged.
Two screens to prove it:
The right one moved over the river (and took the free promotion for combat one):

The left one was placed here (and i gave him combat one with the worldbuilder and removed the free promotion).


So they have the same promotions but the right one should have a -40 flag for river crossing.
But he has not.

 

[Chip56]

I also had a look at my save game and i found one mace man at the western border of the baleraph that has combat one and enchanted weapons (which dont show) and that hasnt moved for 4 turns (20% fortify)-> no river crossing
You can find him with the chariot thats parked in argenteria. just move to the left.
He is one tile over and three tiles left of Guell on the nightmares..

Almost no unit shows a combat bonus from combat 1-5 in this game

 

[Kael]

Deserts are very different terrain from flood plains. One has very sparse vegetation, the other excellent for farming. You can't defend a desert outpost in sifting sand with no source of water anywhere near as well as you can in what amounts to a grassland.

For the combat odds, 6-4.28 isn't your odds, just the comparative strength. If you tried to beat up someone twice your strength, your odds would not be 1-2. They have comparative percent chances and strength based damage that adds up, 100% isn't mathematically correct, but you have rounds and each unit either hits or misses. Somewhere there's a post here with them worked out.

To go with chip's, a normal game with no world builder additions. Just hit end turn, the knight attacks, the combat two paladin dies with no bonuses from combat and a -50 from the knights. In addition to his example, the combat two knight doesn't show any bonuses either on defense, including his holy shield. If you move to the next hill, you'll get more guys worked over by the defenders of the next city down, significantly less powerful flurries and berserkers will kill that beautiful combat 5, guerilla 1, commando paladin.

Also, yes, I know, my defenses in my cities . .. .. .. .ing suck, it can't be helped. I have to kill everything on offense anyways, so having defense hasn't been useful...

Interesting, the knight in this example also crossed a river this turn (the one outside of Celo). But he should get +70%, -40% for the river and have +30% left instead of +0%.

Hmm...