Something Strange at The U.N.

[DrewBledsoe]

Ok, here's the situation...It's late game, I have Cathy as conquered Vassal, and recently I have Mansa too after taking his 6 best cities, leaving him with around 8 left. Rome and England have a perm alliance, as do Otto and Persia. Genghis is still attacking anyone for even "looking at him in a funny way", the other nations are too small and backward to matter.

Right, so I'm a few turns away from completing U.N., when Mansa pops a GE and uses him to rush it's completion. No worries, as I'm far too unpopular worldwide, and was only building it to stop someone else doing so.

So elections come around, and the only candidates are me or Mansa. Hold on there. Mansa, my vassal surely has to vote for me, it's in the rules.But no, since he built the U.N., he can vote for himself.Huh? Which of course he does, as do Rome / Eng and Otto / Persia, and we have the faintly ridiculous situation, of a conquered vassal having power over the rest of the world.

And the little so and so goes and gets environmentalism, free religion, emancipation and others (I voted no to each) all voted as worldwide civics. He even narrowly fails on getting himself voted into a diplomatic victory.

Ok you may be laughing at my predicament now, but surely this goes against how vassalage should work. I won't call it a bug, but there's definetly somewhat strange happening at the U.N.

Comments welcome....................

 

[Stylesrj]

I thought when the idiot AI went for Environmentalism, most would vote NO, like Tokguawa and those other people. Why is even Envrionmentalism in the Economics section anyway?

Sounds like you've got yourself screwed. Conquer some more people, make them vassals. Overun your vassal with your extra voters

 

[Quagga]

Thanks for letting us know that can happen. Quite a surprise to me.

I know how to prevent this from happening: Don't let your vassals research Mass Media.

Rocketry is also one that a vassal shouldn't be allowed to get. With it, they try to build the Space Ship. Even if they can't succeed, they waste their resources on it. You want them building units. Besides, they love SAM Infantry way too much.

 

[Tee Kay]

There was another thread on this a while back. If a neighbour civ is too weak to resist you, destroy them. Don't make them vassals, esp as the Warlords patch removed the possibility of getting huge amounts of gold from your vassal.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Thanks for letting us know that can happen. Quite a surprise to me.

I know how to prevent this from happening: Don't let your vassals research Mass Media.

Rocketry is also one that a vassal shouldn't be allowed to get. With it, they try to build the Space Ship. Even if they can't succeed, they waste their resources on it. You want them building units. Besides, they love SAM Infantry way too much.

It was actually quite an unusual game set up...fractal huge map, which produced 2 large and one small cont, with several useful islands (why can't more maps be like that ?)...the thing was, that my cont had me, Cathy, Capac (who I killed early on), Genghis, Roose and Asoka, (who Genghis killed off early on)..

While our continent was quite well "balanced", the other wasn't, it had Cyrus, Otto, Mansa, Julius, and Victoria...even though I'm playing agg ais, not one single war was ever fought between any of the nations on that continent, and they just sat there and built and traded (this is monarch, marathon btw).

Zulu had the small continent, and were isolated until optics (it really was like Zulu dawn when Cyrus invaded with Rifles vs at best axes...ouch)

The 2nd part of the game boiled down to me with 35 ish cities trying to outtech 5 nations sharing eveything, and later 2 perm alliances. The war against Mansa was purely one of those "sorry pal, but your too far ahead in tech, prepare to get slapped around for it" wars, and thus even as a vassal, he was still several techs ahead of me (which he wouldn't trade).

I eventually just beat the Rome / England pact to a space victory, but it was damn close, and I had to have 4 spies permanently on wrecking crew duty around their "Docking Bay" city. (This is with 2.08 patch btw, the ai still seems to completely miss the point of having pure production cities, it just seems to arrive at a couple of them by accident, so it's almost always going to lose the Space Race, when my ratio is probs 1.7 commerce cities to 1 production city).

Anyways, sorry for the digression, but yes, as he nearly did, your vassal can go and win himself a diplomatic victory, given the right circumstances....which to me again is a gray area, bug or not bug? I'm not sure myself....

 

[DrewBledsoe]

There was another thread on this a while back. If a neighbour civ is too weak to resist you, destroy them. Don't make them vassals, esp as the Warlords patch removed the possibility of getting huge amounts of gold from your vassal.

See my post below yours for clarification..., I took 120 assorted Infantry (best I had at the time) and artillery, plus around 30 destroyers and battleships, and 6 cities was all I could manage, as they had to take on tanks and marines. I was totally concerned also with the fact Mansa would "do a Mansa" and vassalize to one of the 2 perm alliances (who hated my guts )

Anyways, it did the job, just, it stopped him being the "tech hub" that he often imho spoils the game by being.

 

[icemanjsg]

Ok, here's the situation...It's late game, I have Cathy as conquered Vassal, and recently I have Mansa too after taking his 6 best cities, leaving him with around 8 left. Rome and England have a perm alliance, as do Otto and Persia. Genghis is still attacking anyone for even "looking at him in a funny way", the other nations are too small and backward to matter.

Right, so I'm a few turns away from completing U.N., when Mansa pops a GE and uses him to rush it's completion. No worries, as I'm far too unpopular worldwide, and was only building it to stop someone else doing so.

So elections come around, and the only candidates are me or Mansa. Hold on there. Mansa, my vassal surely has to vote for me, it's in the rules.But no, since he built the U.N., he can vote for himself.Huh? Which of course he does, as do Rome / Eng and Otto / Persia, and we have the faintly ridiculous situation, of a conquered vassal having power over the rest of the world.

And the little so and so goes and gets environmentalism, free religion, emancipation and others (I voted no to each) all voted as worldwide civics. He even narrowly fails on getting himself voted into a diplomatic victory.

Ok you may be laughing at my predicament now, but surely this goes against how vassalage should work. I won't call it a bug, but there's definetly somewhat strange happening at the U.N.

Comments welcome....................

This guy is right this is stupid. a prerequisite to building the UN should be you have emancipation and are a FREE nation. I think the UN is a stupid wonder and easily the worst concept in the game.

Look i am communist o wait now I'm not.

In my games who ever builds the UN i declare war on and burn it down, but unfortunately you can't do this.

 

[Quagga]

This guy is right this is stupid. a prerequisite to building the UN should be you have emancipation and are a FREE nation. I think the UN is a stupid wonder and easily the worst concept in the game.

Doubtful that the word "stupid" applies. Surprising, yes. Without precedent in real life, no question. Possible in an alternate history, maybe.

I'm not an expert on UN history, but I do know that the Soviet Union was one of the major powers involved in its creation. It had, I believe, two "vassal" states with voting rights in the UN, one being Ukraine (now broken away from its former master). Imagine that the UN HQ was built in Kiev and that the first Secretary General came from that country. That's essentially what happened in Drew Bledsoe's game.

 

[Flak Fox]

Personally, I dislike how you cannot end your vassal agreements, only your vassals can do that. Unless I am missing something, every time I try to disable it it says "you cannot do this currently" as if the normal 20 turn time limit hasn't gone up yet.

Isabella is ticking me off and I no longer want to protect her, I want to pwn her

 

[Stylesrj]

I think their should be a choice with the UN. If you choose to disobey the commands, you can be sanctioned so no one can trade with you, or you can be a rogue nation which makes you sanctioned by everyone except other rogues and if you're a rogue, the AI gets more upset "You have broken off from our United Nations! We cannot forgive you for that!" and if they're a rogue "We always like people who hate the United Nations". Rogue nations ot you in the UN go something like this "You're a filthy slave to the United Nations" and also "We support you being in the United Nations".

Win-win situation. If you don't like those civics forced on you, you should have the choise of breaking off from the UN.

On the bright side, if a civic is forced upon you, you don't get an anarchy. It should be, when the civic is imposed, you have 10 turns to change it to that or else you'll be sanctioned unless you've created the UN. The UN creator cannot break off from the UN and has to follow whatever everyone votes for.

That's my thoughts on how the UN should go in the game

 

[Xira]

It's still true. What is Isreal if not a vassel?

 

[Clown2TheLeft]

The UN is one of the worst concepts, ever.

In the game, too.



Later!

--The Clown to the Left.

 

[LucyDuke]

I think their should be a choice with the UN. If you choose to disobey the commands, you can be sanctioned so no one can trade with you, or you can be a rogue nation which makes you sanctioned by everyone except other rogues and if you're a rogue, the AI gets more upset "You have broken off from our United Nations! We cannot forgive you for that!" and if they're a rogue "We always like people who hate the United Nations". Rogue nations ot you in the UN go something like this "You're a filthy slave to the United Nations" and also "We support you being in the United Nations".

I like this idea. Is it something that could be modded?

 

[blueraider0]

In my games who ever builds the UN i declare war on and burn it down, but unfortunately you can't do this.

He could request all of Mansi's resources - eventually he'll say no (probably) and then war is declared and he goes in and burns down the UN (or captures the city and has to face off against one of those alliances.

 

[Willowmound]

The UN is one of the worst concepts, ever.

In the game, too.



Later!

--The Clown to the Left.

Look at the clown.

@OP: Why don't you vote for Mansa next time Diplomatic Victory comes up? To see what will happen. If a vassal of yours wins the game, surely you win too?

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Look at the clown.

@OP: Why don't you vote for Mansa next time Diplomatic Victory comes up? To see what will happen. If a vassal of yours wins the game, surely you win too?

Actually thats an interesting idea, but since that game is now well done and over (I just scraped a Space Race Win out), it's a thought for another time...

 

[Willowmound]

No old saves either? Oh well. Something to try if this ever happens again.