Son of a...

[Venger]

So I get Warlords, really like it, and decide it's time to make just a few minor changes, like I have to every Civ version I've owned - in other words all of them.

Good FREAKING LORD, I own a freaking tech company and it took me all day just to add an ugly lumber resource, which is working, oh, at about 85%... man, I added lumber in Civ3 in like 5 minutes. I can see the power behind the new modding engine, but for little things... forget it, man alive...

If anyone decides to do a really nice Timber resource, lemme know, I grabbed one from the Med mod and it looks like someone planted overripe bananas in the ground...

What we could really use is a more modular modifying system, something you can plug away at without having to worry about modify a dozen files... I mean to add a resource, you gotta add what, 20+ files? And I still can't get the little icon for timber to show when you mouse over the square... just black space... sigh.

One thing is for sure - the casual modder is done for...

Venger

 

[Redking]

One thing is for sure - the casual modder is done for...

Effing amen.

I see some wonderful things being drummed up, and can foresee some more coming. But the ability to pick and choose, and to combine modifications, requires either a ridiculous investment of time or a ridiculous dependence upon others.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hey, I am definitely a casual modder, and I feel anything but done for. Of course, I would be hopeless at graphics mods-but this would have been true even in Civ3!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[woodelf]

Through trial and lots of errors the possibilities are limitless. I had never heard of XML, python, Blender, or 3ds max before Civ4. Now I can easily do XML and am learning 3d.

Simply pick a mod or a small add-a-civ mod and see what small changes they made. Make some of your own and go from there. You can't do any harm so long as you're working in the Mods folder. And always ask question here since this is the best resource available.

 

[wotan321]

..but what gripes me... there was/is no documentation by the developers, that I have seen. What files do what? How do they work together?

Sure the community has created SOME info, but its haphazard and incomplete, though done with the best of intentions...it is better than NOTHING.

Yes, XML is relatively simple, but again like Venger noted, required associated files are all over the place and that would be fine if we knew where they were and how they related.

Python.... you have to have time and persevernce to learn it, its simple as that, and if you are a casual modder you don't have time to learn a programming language.

The earlier civs, Civ2 and Civ3, didn't come packed with editors (and the WBuilder is great, but has lots of room for improvement) so maybe we will see such things in the future. I hope the next Xpansion pack is called "Civ4 God Toolkit" or something like that, with documentation, tutorials and GUI editors for XML and events.

Until then, just read, read, read and experiment.

 

[Redking]

Through trial and lots of errors the possibilities are limitless....

The ability to add a few resources and units has been greatly diminished for those unable to devote hours to amateur programming.

The "assets" feature of the game, for reasons that would require my sorting through untold numbers of threads posted by people with way more time to devote than I have, seems ignored in favor of the "mods" feature. And the simple act of compiling mods remains unrefined and unsupported.

Not to be contentious, but rather to emphasize the point: casual modding is gone, and your above quote speaks to the final evaporation of any plug-in-like dreams tenuously held by once-modders of Civ3.

 

[Venger]

Wow, struck a nerve of sorts here...

Here's what I did in one day in Civ3...

Added 2 new Civs:
Moors
Hebrews

Added 14 new units:
Bronze Swordsman
Knight Templar
Dragoons
Light Infrantry
Heavy Infantry
Mobile Infantry
Assault Gun
Main Battle Tank
Gun Carriage
Longboat
Ship of the Line
Corvette
Dreadnaught
Biplane

14 New Resources:
Tobacco
Timber
Coffee
Seals
Bananas
Clay
Corn
Pearls
Cotton
Silver
Sheep
Rice
Potatoes
Olives

And dozens and dozens of other tweaks. For all the limits of the Civ3 editor, adding something was fairly straightforward. Civ4 modding is a mess - a literal mess. If someone were able to create an interface to the game, like the Civ3 editor, which allowed casual modders access to the games inner workings without having to try and track down the dozen randomly scattered .xml files that need to be modified, they'd have themselves one thankful user to be sure...

Venger

 

[woodelf]

Point made. Mod CivIII then and play other people's mods of Civ4. I won't try to convince you any longer.

 

[Kael]

There is a balance between flexibility and simplicity. Firaxis had to make a choice on where they would draw that line. I assume they decided on the side of flexibility knowing full well there it meant there would be fewer mods, but that those mods would be better.

I didn't know anything about programming before starting Fall from Heaven, I had never even heard of Python before buying Civ4. And it did mean that I had to do a lot of learning. It would have been easier if there was an editor, but I never would have been able to do the things that I have done. So its harder, but you can do more.

The disadvantage of an editor is the same as its advantage. It takes away all of the specilization and allows you to modify set values that the editor knows about, but an editor wouldnt allow you to add new features.

So you may ask why didn't Firaxis do both, release the complex modding tools and an easy to use editor so that players can do both. Well of course that would be the perfect solution, but I suspect that they are dealing with a limited amount of resources and had to go down one path or the other.

So I am so glad Firaxis did what they did. But I defintily understand (and Ive been through) the frustration at at trying to make those first few changes.

 

[Jeckel]

And dozens and dozens of other tweaks. For all the limits of the Civ3 editor, adding something was fairly straightforward. Civ4 modding is a mess - a literal mess. If someone were able to create an interface to the game, like the Civ3 editor, which allowed casual modders access to the games inner workings without having to try and track down the dozen randomly scattered .xml files that need to be modified, they'd have themselves one thankful user to be sure...

But they aren't randomly scattered at all. Sure a couple of things are kinda hidden in the BasicInfo directory, but all the main stuff, Units, promotions, buildings, terrain, bonuses, technologies, civilizations, leaders, ect. are all right there one folder down from the XML folder. The files themselves are pretty straight forwardly named. You just have to look through the directories, open some files, and use the search tool for terms your looking for. If you don't know what a XML tag means, go to wikipedia, it has most of the important files layed out bare.

And no offense to people asking questions, but when I see the same questions asked that I know we've answered dozens of times, questions that are answered in detail in guides on the first page of the tutorial forum, that some times have answers in short threads just a few lines down from the question.. It just gets you to wondering if people read any of the board.

It just all comes down to reading and people don't want to do it. modding Civ4 may have a slightly higher learning curve, but once you get the basics down it isn't hard at all. For most things you don't have to mess with more then 3 files, the main infos.xml for what your doing, its artdefines.xml, and maybe the text file. And since generally its just cut and paste from one mod to another, that is even easyer and takes only seconds.

If you don't like the way they did it fine, but to say it is a mess or has it file scattered randomly is both inaccurate and untrue. Major props should be given to the Fraxis team for the great variety of modding posabilities they gave us to play with. Just do some reading and it is all open to anyone that wants it.

 

[eriscicle]

I agree with the orginal poster's feelings, now here's my but

()()

when we were modding civ1-3 there was finite amount of harm you could do to your machine when you messed up. with civ1 I think it was impossible, with civ3 we all had that one flickster file that went wonky and made our harddrive scream like female victim #3 in a slasher pic.

and as was stated above, if you want to be able to do more, then the slope is going to get pretty steep.

and in a way you can't expect the software company to make a 1 size fits all editor that can do ever---yy-thing or it'll be 2 years just in the testing. every machine on the market with ever possible config has to be tested for every little thingamajig you do that effects the code...

then there is the entire AI issue, with civ1, it was pretty simple, make settler, make worker, make fighter, kill other fighter, worker and settler; go this way thorugh the tech tree. now you have AI that can actually grok the nuaince between +3hammer and +3 coin, again which all has to be tested...

flipside: if I pay 30,000 dollars for a car, I do expect putting a new oil filter in shouldn't be an exersise in watching someone else do it...if I pay 50 dollars for a computer game the same thing holds true.

but as Kael and woodelf said (and other's if I can't remember your names) just stick with it, the xml stuff gets easier once you learn the syntax. the python stuff, I'm still learning and sdk makes me cry but I'm learning and so can you.

 

[T.A JONES]

I totally agree with the OP( thats original eh?), really though, Ive seen the lastest of great devolpments in Civ3 modding. The other day a guy learns how to make animated city sets( lil smoke stacks puffing away)
He discovered using the plague animation and fooling around with its duration he could break through the walls of Civ3's BIC restrictions
Civ3 Modding forums are still a buzz with innovative ways to improve the game's look and feel. The smooth aspects of the modding setup is the only reason for this.

The thing hurtin Civ4 mods the most is the number of artists and quality modders who avoid Civ4, instead choosing to contstantly refine Civ3 for an always large n' appreciative support base.

 

[The Great Apple]

The thing hurtin Civ4 mods the most is the number of artists and quality modders who avoid Civ4, instead choosing to contstantly refine Civ3 for an always large n' appreciative support base.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. A quick look at the File Database shows that all of the top 10 downloads are for Civ 4. It would appear that the Civ 4 support base is slightly larger, and I would expect they are equally, if not more, appriciative, as the improvements are greater in scale. If you check out new content... once more Civ 4 has more - maybe that suggests that there are more artists and quality modders modding Civ 4?

Yeah, it's harder then it was before. The main difficulties come in adding new stuff - altering current stuff is very easy with XML.

 

[doronron]

Venger, any personal project is going to take time. It's just a matter of deciding whether the project is worth it or not.

 

[Edgecrusher]

..but what gripes me... there was/is no documentation by the developers, that I have seen. What files do what? How do they work together?

Im useless when it comes to design, and my creative vein only works when it has to, but if there is one thing I am good at its documentation, databases, and organization.


I to was a little confused, but as I mentioned in another thread, If I had a question about what a tag ment, I just found out what in the game used it. from there I kept very good files, to the point where I can pretty much do anything with the XMLs. (Python et al Im useless).

Ive been working on a database of sorts, to help users here. It wont be a "MOD" but it will be a guide defining the tags and what they do.

Alot is just trial and error.

I would eventually like to do make a grand database of say, all the units available (both FireAxis and user created) w/ the accepted stats/prereqs and such. In time though. At work I only have access to the Internet, and thus I cant work on anything.

 

[Venger]

Well, to be sure, I certainly recognize the difference in modability between 3 and 4 - Civ4 has so much more modability it's scary. But yeah, it came at a high price - ease. Literally, in Civ3, to add a resource, you mod the graphic file, open the Civ Editor, and if you want, add a Pedia entry. Minutes. Civ4 modding isn't nearly that easy. There seems to me likely a better way, but this is the way we have so...

Unless the Civ4 guys aren't doing what you have to do - I would bet money they aren't hacking around XML files. I bet they have a tool that does it all for them. That's what we need. I will sign up for a night raid on the dev studio to get this. Many Bothans will die to obtain this information...

Venger
P.S. Doronron, you are right... alas, my hassle budget is exhausted... at the end of the day, adding Timber consumed hours, and resulted in an ugly graphic and marginal performance... sigh. I used to love custom tweaks in Civ...
P.S.2. Jeckel, I searched and searched and found one decent post about how to add a resource, followed it, and still ended up with a half working item - and if you are gonna tell me it isn't convoluted... did you use the Civ3 editor? Man... I modded MOO3 easier than Civ4...

 

[Kael]

Well, to be sure, I certainly recognize the difference in modability between 3 and 4 - Civ4 has so much more modability it's scary. But yeah, it came at a high price - ease. Literally, in Civ3, to add a resource, you mod the graphic file, open the Civ Editor, and if you want, add a Pedia entry. Minutes. Civ4 modding isn't nearly that easy. There seems to me likely a better way, but this is the way we have so...

Unless the Civ4 guys aren't doing what you have to do - I would bet money they aren't hacking around XML files. I bet they have a tool that does it all for them. That's what we need. I will sign up for a night raid on the dev studio to get this. Many Bothans will die to obtain this information...

Venger
P.S. Doronron, you are right... alas, my hassle budget is exhausted... at the end of the day, adding Timber consumed hours, and resulted in an ugly graphic and marginal performance... sigh. I used to love custom tweaks in Civ...
P.S.2. Jeckel, I searched and searched and found one decent post about how to add a resource, followed it, and still ended up with a half working item - and if you are gonna tell me it isn't convoluted... did you use the Civ3 editor? Man... I modded MOO3 easier than Civ4...

You can see what Firaxis uses to edit the XML files, its at the top of every file, XMLSpy. They don't have an editor.

 

[Redking]

play other people's mods of Civ4.

I do. One... at... a... time.

I used to splice film. I used to work in document management. I have an art background. I can apply patience and I can learn software. But the protocols for modding seem near anarchous, and there are people with talents, with regard to graphics, ethnobiology, and history, that can't approach this hodgepodge. Some might consider that a shame.

 

[Gunner]

I do. One... at... a... time.

I used to splice film. I used to work in document management. I have an art background. I can apply patience and I can learn software. But the protocols for modding seem near anarchous, and there are people with talents, with regard to graphics, ethnobiology, and history, that can't approach this hodgepodge. Some might consider that a shame.

I think you're exaggerating a bit there. It really isn't quite as difficult as you make it out to learn, and once you've gotten the hang of xml modding it really goes by quite fast. With all of the patience and experience you claim to have you should be able to become relatively proficient in a few hours of practice.

 

[Edgecrusher]

One thing I wish happened was instead of making 1 "All Encompessing Mod", with all the new civs/units/etc... I wish they were all seperate. And instead of having the new XML files already have the Code in them. I wish there was say, just 1 TXT file with the code needed. That way, one could download what they wanted and edit as they wanted, instead of sifting through thousands of changes, just to to add a couple new units and a civ.

One of these days I can use my database/documenting skills and do that.