Space Elevator Sucks.

[TheMeInTeam]

Okay, most of you already knew that. However, it had surprisingly sad amounts of support in the "what is the worst wonder" thread. I'd LOVE to believe this wonder has some use outside of exceedingly obscure scenarios.

If you are in support of it, I'd like to see some math to prove that 1) teching robotics and 2) actually building it saved you time compared to simply skipping robotics and continuing on space technology research. If all you can do is say "it shaves off a few turns", the argument is useless. There's enough of that in the "worst wonder" thread. If you are going to do that, I'm going to say that C. Itza shaves off 10 turns off the space time, probably copying the exact style of the post...and have equal proof. Nobody wants to see that.

As for evidence, this would be in poor form if I didn't have any. I submit to the forum 3 saves: one shortly after teching rocketry for apollo, one after researching computers en route to fusion (when robotics is available), and one at the launch time. A couple notes on this game:

- This is a forum game from strategy & tips
- It's "only" on monarch. I'd imagine that's where most of the pro SElevator guys are or so though (and even if it isn't, it is roughly the median difficulty based on poll results anyway), with the notable exception of Obsolete, who I've asked to help find a way this wonder doesn't suck in BTS. If he can, it would be helpful, and not just to me.
- Because it's monarch, I'm obviously blowing out the AI in tech, so no need for copper-less internet (I wouldn't have received anything substantial from it AFAIK) but
- The land isn't so hot. Production is poor, and I only have 8 cities (funny that one didn't flip despite culture pressure in the BCs and being more % mongolian for >150 turns...)

Keep in mind that the greater one's production relative to tech rate, the LESS incentive one has to use up turns teching robotics...so a hammer-poor empire that is basically cottaged up to hell is the perfect candidate for space elevator...if it didn't suck.

View attachment SE Sucks 1883.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment SE Sucks 1917.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment SE Sucks 1935.CivBeyondSwordSave

Keep in mind this is epic speed...although it matters far less when one never engages in a single war until the AP forces a pretend one about 10 turns before launch.

From the time I finished ecology, my last space tech, to the time I launched was about 11 turns. In order for SE to have even the tiniest sliver of hope as a wonder in this game, it would need to save me more turns after finishing the last spaceship tech than I'd have used up researching robotics, at minimum. Robotics took me somewhere 11 turns to research. I beelined it hardcore max building wealth/research after I had ecology. I had robotics the same turn I launched the ship, and it was the FIRST technology I researched after finishing. Nope, for my tech rate it wasn't even possible for space elevator to save time.

What's even worse is, even if I had ~3000 beakers/turn with the same miserable, hammer-starved small empire, STILL the space elevator would have failed to shave more turns off ship part construction than it took to research the tech. Of course, empires with that kind of robust research rate also tend to have better production, so they need SE help less :/.

Conclusion: Unless you have a lot of cities and receive robotics from internet, space elevator is a complete waste, generally HURTING your time to launch. This wonder is 100% worthy of the votes it gets for "worst wonder", although I do understand that it is hard to pick between it and C. Itza. However, consider this:

- Itza can be used for failure gold at a time where doing so is more efficient than doing it at robotics
- Itza comes with a technology you generally want for both trade bait, its path on the tree, and for the building/civic it unlocks
- Itza provides GPP at a time where it is still meaningful
- Itza actually buys you 1-3 turns of the AI stupidly bombarding a wall or castle border city should diplomacy fail.
- Having Itza means the opponent does not have it. While this is also true for the elevator, the elevator actively hurts space completion time, so there is no point in denying the AI damage to its own space time.

This was a good wonder, before they added the new tech requirement. Now, it's trash, and it certainly has a case for being "worst in game".

Feel free to prove me wrong however. I'd love to learn I'm somehow mistaken about this wonder, and that there is a secret way to tech robotics and not lose time.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You need to tech robotics so you can do this


Link to video.

Meh no embedding


Link to video.

 

[r_rolo1]

Conclusion: Unless you have a lot of cities and receive robotics from internet...

The part of receiving Robotics from the Net would be a first to me It means that two AI got Computers, but somehow teched Robotics and forgot to build the internet. IMHO that is almost as likely as getting it from a hut

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The part of receiving Robotics from the Net would be a first to me It means that two AI got Computers, but somehow teched Robotics and forgot to build the internet. IMHO that is almost as likely as getting it from a hut

I was trying to be mostly-ironic, although it does happen on rare occasions in my games . Usually it involves an AI I am close in the race with choosing to tech robotics...and since it has a peacevassal whoring it for techs, simply gifts it there . Peacevassals are such a stupid concept, and when the aren't screwing you, they are completely screwing up the AI instead.

Obviously since I had like 15 cities in a few of those games I could rotate in one of the worst wonders in the game and get some small benefit from it. However, I don't think that is the context people are advocating the wonder generally, and being useful for <10% of the games pursuing only one VC type while actively hurting in the other 90% does not make a good wonder, or even a below-average one.

 

[Higher Game]

- It's "only" on monarch. I'd imagine that's where most of the pro SElevator guys are or so though (and even if it isn't, it is roughly the median difficulty based on poll results anyway), with the notable exception of Obsolete, who I've asked to help find a way this wonder doesn't suck in BTS. If he can, it would be helpful, and not just to me.
- Because it's monarch, I'm obviously blowing out the AI in tech

I'm not sure this is fair. You can trade/steal robotics more often at higher difficulty levels; I don't think anyone has advocated teching robotics for a space race win.

Angkor Wat is still worse than Itza. Out of curiosity I did oracle --> divine right (emperor, using Elizabeth) and I still didn't need so many stupid priests.

 

[LL_LordOmega]

Large empires with everything (good production, commerce, etc.) can use it to shave a few turns off by building it in an extra city and perhaps rush buying it early. Other than that, it is one of many useless wonders. Probably the most useless because it can't contribute to a culture victory, unlike chicken pizza, angkor wat, and other early wonders.

And by large empire, I also mean that it has such a strong tech rate that you'll be getting future techs before the space ship arrives. I play on immortal, for reference.

 

[NihilZero]

Obviously since I had like 15 cities in a few of those games I could rotate in one of the worst wonders in the game and get some small benefit from it.

In the other thread, TMIT was ranting at me in his inimitable fashion , despite the fact that I know exactly how lame the Elevator is, for making a similar statement to the one quoted above...

It is indeed a useless wonder, but what else are you going to build at the end of the game? You might even score a dozen more points or so for having another wonder.

And why are people pretending that they never finish the tech tree? It's very easy to get into the future techs at the end. When you have a good lead in ship parts it can't hurt you to make some trades and pick up the last of the techs. You might even get a half-dozen points for having the technologies! Yay!

I concede that I'm a terrible Space Race player, but to me it's just the lazy way to finish a game that's already in the bag, so pardon me if my I slack off a little where efficiency is concerned and end up with a lot of cities that are idle while I build Engines and Casings due to my arse-about-face tech order. In a lot of my space games I have had over thirty cities but I'm too lazy for domination. Add in the fact that you'll have great engineers popping all over the place at this point, and it's fairly harmless to put up an inconsequential wonder in a game that's already won.

 

[Kullervo]

I go for the SE because if I don't, someone else does, and somehow, in my admittedly limited experience, they tend to win by Space Race even if I get the Appollo program before them. Does that mean I just play very badly? I have no doubt that many will say yes. But the SE is still worth getting for me just because of that.

I don't get why people say that it is so useless. The Space Elevator requires one city to build. And all the math says that you can build several spaceship parts instead, and thus, it doesn't do anything, but I noticed in a test game for this very purpose (for this discussion came up in another thread) that if I streamline Robotics, build the Space Elevator, and then go for the spaceship, I win 22 turns earlier than if I just left Robotics until later and build the spaceship as it was. I think that even the most unwise stickler would aggree that 22 turns is not just 'shaving off a few turns'. Again, maybe I was stupid, or maybe it just so happened that all my cities were unproductive except for a few that could build the SE, but I still try to build the SE in every game, because you never know. I'm too lazy to mathematically figure out a problem that has about 20 different variables in it (AI plans, your own plans, whether or not you have wars going on, your financial situation)... and unstandard situations crop up 9 times out of ten, again in my limited experience.

IIRC, Robotics also gives you access to Mechanized Infantry, which can be very useful indeed as it comes at a lesser Hammer cost than Modern Armors. I often end up using Mechanized infantries on opponents that have fallen behind techwise, and so Robotics is far from useless for me, and since I'm going for it anyway, why not snatch away a wonder while I'm at it? Extra GPP's might not matter too much in the later game, but it's nice to have them anyway, just in case.

And lastly, I like the animation on the GE, and since I play a game for fun, that matters in choosing whether I build it or not. In the same category of arguments, I often don't WANT to win so fast. I draw the game out, get involved in a few wars, watch a few cities reach Legendary culture (because I usually turn Cult. Victory off), try to get my cities as large as possible before winning. Yes, I can do that after I win, but then it's just... no fun anymore. That's my personal preference. So the extra GPP's from the SE often give me one more GP than I usually would have, and I could use him to, say, build an academy in a border city in order to prevent a culture crush, or get a Future tech faster in order to see how large I can make my capital. Again, this is something that not everyone does, and I just know that someone will say 'Your argument is pointless, stupid, and invalid', but that's why I think that the Space elevator does not suck.

 

[Alki]

I wouldn't say it's the worst wonder in the game but it's in the Top 1 Worst Wonder group.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And why are people pretending that they never finish the tech tree? It's very easy to get into the future techs at the end. When you have a good lead in ship parts it can't hurt you to make some trades and pick up the last of the techs. You might even get a half-dozen points for having the technologies! Yay!

In this game, I had TERRIBLE production and average tech rate. I was still about 7 techs from finishing the tree. If production is reasonably comparable to tech rate (aka you don't just farm and run specs w/o investing in hammer improvements, ever, which is a terrible idea for space), you are not going to finish the tree before LAUNCH unless internet gives you considerable help from the AI, and even then it's almost impossible unless you sit on the space ship after finishing it (A very very very bad idea).

If you're packing 30 cities, you can build every single part simultaneously, and you can build them rapidly. Teching robotics before you have every space tech is a guaranteed waste of time. Even with 30 cities, it's unlikely you finish it before you finish your space parts and tech robotics. How quickly can you tech robotics? In a game where production is so good, you'd probably need to tech it in 0 turns, maybe 1. Good luck.

Although a tip for making "where to build what part" is in order: Open your list of cities (f1) and sort your cities by hammer production (building wealth or research skews it unless city sizes are very large, but still a good lineup). Put the most expensive parts in the most hammer-rich cities, and just keep doing that for each part in each city, minding the build times. It does *not* take extensive planning to get a pretty good space part----> city plan.

I'm not sure this is fair. You can trade/steal robotics more often at higher difficulty levels; I don't think anyone has advocated teching robotics for a space race win.

I'd like to see some evidence of getting access to such things while it still matters on a consistent basis. Stealing robotics when you're 10-20 turns from finishing the ship regardless isn't too useful, and sometimes not possible depending on what the AI does.

Large empires with everything (good production, commerce, etc.) can use it to shave a few turns off by building it in an extra city and perhaps rush buying it early. Other than that, it is one of many useless wonders. Probably the most useless because it can't contribute to a culture victory, unlike chicken pizza, angkor wat, and other early wonders.

Failure post. You either didn't read the OP, or you read it and felt like making a random assertion without proof or even logical support. Surely you can do better.

I go for the SE because if I don't, someone else does, and somehow, in my admittedly limited experience, they tend to win by Space Race even if I get the Appollo program before them. Does that mean I just play very badly? I have no doubt that many will say yes. But the SE is still worth getting for me just because of that.

More like SE is costing you turns, contributing to your losses, at least in the excessively wide majority of cases.

I don't get why people say that it is so useless.

OP makes a pretty good case. You've yet to refute it, BTW.

And all the math says that you can build several spaceship parts instead, and thus, it doesn't do anything, but I noticed in a test game for this very purpose (for this discussion came up in another thread) that if I streamline Robotics, build the Space Elevator, and then go for the spaceship, I win 22 turns earlier than if I just left Robotics until later and build the spaceship as it was.

Was that in BTS, or not? What kind of tech path did you take? How long did it take to research robotics? How long after your final space ship tech were you able to complete the ship? Can you at least link the thread? I can just as easily say I ran a test game where not building it saved me 50 turns. It would mean about as much, too.

I think that even the most unwise stickler would aggree that 22 turns is not just 'shaving off a few turns'.

Sure, if it actually happened and was computed accurately.

Again, maybe I was stupid, or maybe it just so happened that all my cities were unproductive except for a few that could build the SE, but I still try to build the SE in every game, because you never know.

I try to delete my starting settler in every game, because you never know .

and unstandard situations crop up 9 times out of ten, again in my limited experience.

If you're going to throw in fluff to pad an argument with irrelevant comments (a common tactic even at the highest levels of political debate, where that is frequently the entire answer ), at least choose something that isn't so obviously false by definition .

And lastly, I like the animation on the GE, and since I play a game for fun, that matters in choosing whether I build it or not.

If you can't come up with reasonable proof that BTS SE is worthwhile, this is far and away the best reason for bothering to build it, and I don't fault anyone who builds it for *that* reason. But this thread isn't about whether you like building a terrible wonder for fun. This thread is specifically about whether the wonder is terrible, and the arguments against that assertion are painfully frail thus far.

 

[kolokol]

Not a lot of 'evidence' in this thread, so I guess I'll take a stab at it

For the record, I play immortal and consider myself a proficient space racer and I have never in my life built the SE (or teched robotics for that matter) and consider it utterly useless.

I'm bored so I ran some math (norm. speed assuming alu. and copper)
This is simplified.... I realise many variables are ommitted

A spaceship costs:
12400 hammers without modifiers
4960 hammers with lab+SE (250%)
8267 hammers with lab (150%)
SE costs: 500 hammers (100%)

giving a net savings 2807 hammers for building the SE

1 hammer building wealth = 2 commerce going through the slider = 4 beakers [Yes/No?]

2807 hammers = 11228 beakers - 8000(robotics)... net gain = 3228 beakers

Assuming a 1000 beakers/turn this equals 3 turn research saved vs 8 turns to tech robotics.
Add to the equation swaping civics after teching Ecology, workshopping over the land to shave a turn or two and that golden ages benefit hammers more than research (I usually shoot for a golden age after Apollo programme and after Fusion)

... I stand by my original opinion SE sucks!

Please please critique these numbers as I'm not at all certain of the math but hey now we have some math to discuss rather than "seems like the AI beats me if I don't"

I think you have to be very! hammer poor for it to be worth it, not even if you have two engineers to rush SE is it worth it

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ Actually, space elevator is only 50%, not 100%, so it is even weaker than your analysis says!!! Ouch.

IIRC it costs more hammers too.

 

[r_rolo1]

He considered Al and Cu present .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

He considered Al and Cu present .

4960 hammers with lab+SE (250%)
8267 hammers with lab (150%)

Seems to imply to me that he's using a 100% bonus for SE. Am I mistaken?

 

[Sidney Magal]

TMIT, you may be right when you say that teching robotics only to build the ship is a waste of time, but you are assuming a diplo safe environment. If you're in danger of being DOWed, teching robotics makes a lot of sense to get mech infs. In such a scenario, do you still think building the SE would be a waste of time?

 

[kochman]

TMIT, you may be right when you say that teching robotics only to build the ship is a waste of time, but you are assuming a diplo safe environment. If you're in danger of being DOWed, teching robotics makes a lot of sense to get mech infs. In such a scenario, do you still think building the SE would be a waste of time?

This is a good point...
I rarely build the SE, because it is expensive, can't be built anywhere and I have to have enough cities that all the spaceship parts are already built or being built...
BUT...
I do for robotics because of Mech Inf... and if I happen to have a GE standing by, and there are no corps left to found with it, I generally will go ahead and put it towards some Wonder, and if the above conditions are met, it will be the SE city...

But, that's like 1 in 10 games probably at best.
I typically play Emperor, have won on Immortal, and have never won on Diety.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TMIT, you may be right when you say that teching robotics only to build the ship is a waste of time, but you are assuming a diplo safe environment. If you're in danger of being DOWed, teching robotics makes a lot of sense to get mech infs. In such a scenario, do you still think building the SE would be a waste of time?

Yes, it is almost always a waste of time. You have a plethora of powerful defensive options that are available right on the space ship path, and some of them potentially BEFORE mechinf:

1. Full metal navy: If your opposition is not on your home continent, you can rip them to pieces at sea with a combination of destroyers and battleships (battleships inflict collateral and attack initiative with them = guaranteed naval victory with even remotely similar #s). You have airships by now also, so you can basically stare at any incoming forces turns ahead of time.

2. If the opposition is not packing mech infantry or modern armor itself, infantry hold up pretty well, especially with arty or (traded for or just earlier than robotics from internet) air support.

3. Nukes. There isn't an invasion stack in the game that gets by a diligent combination of "stick one airship on the stack of each AI that can still declare to see it coming" and a sub or two with tactical nukes. (or a city or two if they're on your continent). Even if their stack is 100's of units, you can blast them to hell for the cost of 2-8 infantry. Good deal. Also note that nukes can be gifted in wars between AIs to lock them in longer and ruin AI-AI relations in general, so they are the gold standard of late-game defense - the opposition has to get through your cheesing just to declare, and if it does it STILL gets its stack murdered.

4. Modern armor is available with spaceship techs exclusively.

5. If you are REALLY hurting for late-game military tech power and don't want/cant get nukes, the better defensive options are mobile arty, stealth bombers (one or the other for massive collateral initiative) and gunships or modern armor. Mechinf is OK junk garrison but against a stack o garbage + collateral it's not too great offensively...no blitz, struggles hammer for hammer vs infantry, no collateral, etc.

6. If you want or need late-game offensive power, again nukes are golden but air power or strong artillery pieces + cover are better than mechinf.

Basically if you have a couple nukes, you have all the defenses you need. Failing that, you'd have to be on a very unstable continent AND not be already carrying a respectable force of infantry/arty to seriously consider robotics for defensive purposes, and even then it wouldn't be a big difference.

To give you a picture of how good mechinf *aren't* for defense, my ragnar let's play shows soundly what happens when one side invests in the wrong military strength. The AI flailed helplessly as forces of marines and fighters ripped mech infantry to shreds with > 4:1 kills to deaths. That isn't the kind of military "advantage" i'd seek while running space.

 

[kochman]

Mech Inf are also great for the offensive though.
A nice stack of Mech Inf with differing promotions is a powerful thing, that march promotion comes in real handy as you stomp through a country's defenses.

 

[LL_LordOmega]

You don't have to do a bunch of unnecessary math to see all your cities building space parts save multiple turns in their build information once completing the elevator. You seriously are over thinking this. If you can build it and have time for the extra research, fine.

What do you do, set your slider to zero when you have all space technology? Getting more tech increases your final score. Not having a bunch of nukes sitting around. Jesus Christ. And when someone is essentially agreeing with you, its quite ignorant to strike them down. Stop playing Civ and learn some basic social skills.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

It's a game!

Most people get so bored by the end of a space race game they want to win as quickly as possible and score doesn't mean much by then (domination is always going to score far more).

EDIT: Have you really never nuked all your friends the turn before you win a space race victory???