Spanish Civil War ToT graphics

[Pablostuka]

Easy ones first:

Awesome job, but let me say that the I-153 was never used in Spain. In the Spanish Civil War we had I-15 "chato" and I-15bis (I-152, "super chato"). The newer I-153 with retractile landing gear never arrived, as far as I know, as it was delivered to the VVS Soviet Air Force in Spring 1939, when the SCW was about to end.

Pablo

 

[McMonkey]

Hi Pablo,

Did you take a look at the multiplayer playtest game Jerec and I are playing at CivWebring? The game is a lot of fun but there are a few balance issues due to the new events (IE the Nationalists are a bit too strong) and there may be a few too many event generated units which makes turns a bit long to play. These issues will be sorted in the final version. I have a long list of things to do, but there is nothing too taxing so I hope to have it ready within the next few months. I can still make some more changes before release.

The airlift now seems to work well and the Test of Time events make the arrival of units much more dynamic than the MGE events ever allowed. I do like the idea of Fighter Ace units, but this would mean cutting other units in the game. I have made all event generated units non-veterans so they have to gain veteran status in battle. Therefore fighter units with veteran status can be considered aces. It would be great to include individual ace's names, but with the lack of available unit spaces I would only be able to include perhaps one per side. Is that going to be worthwhile?

I have included Armoured Trucks and each side has one Armoured Car unit. I'm also considering adding Portuguese Viriatos for the Nationalist side. The Admiral Scheer being a missile does not work for me. The Wikipedia article said it caused extensive damage to Almeria. If it is a one shot weapon it could only destroy one enemy unit. Hardly extensive damage. The use of ships versus cities is fairly limited in the scenario. Most coastal cities have Coastal Batteries and attacking ships health soon deteriorates and it takes time to get them to a friendly port for repairs. I'm pretty satisfied with both sides naval capabilities so far.

It is a real pleasure to work on such a great scenario and give it the Test of Time upgrade. Thanks for giving your blessing to this project!

McMonkey

 

[Fairline]

@ Pablo- Great to see you mate, it's been a long time. How's things?

@Drew: Been a while, but I might be up for a bit of modding after my long break. I'll need to get ToT and PSP running on my win 7 machine first though. Are you still working on this? What else is happening? Get me up to speed chap

 

[Fairline]

Awesome job, but let me say that the I-153 was never used in Spain. In the Spanish Civil War we had I-15 "chato" and I-15bis (I-152, "super chato"). The newer I-153 with retractile landing gear never arrived, as far as I know, as it was delivered to the VVS Soviet Air Force in Spring 1939, when the SCW was about to end.

Pablo

Pablo, I guess the rationale for using the I-153 was as a 'what-if' aircraft for the republicans if the scenario extends further into 1939. I seem to recall reading something about Moelders or Galland mentioning a new kind of I-15 they encountered right at the end of the Civil War, surrounding which there was a bit of speculation as to whether it was an I-15B or 153. Not sure though....

 

[Fairline]

here we go, a link to the speculative Moelders / 1-153 encounter:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4847

 

[McMonkey]

Hello stranger. When you feel up to modding a few units I would appreciate some help putting the finishing touches on this scenario. I would say it is 95% complete, and the 5% to do is mainly tweaking event units numbers (for balance) and fixing minor bugs. You can check out the game Jerec and I are currently engaged in on this thread at CivWebring. At the moment it is slightly too Nationalist heavy, but with a few tweaks to the events and other minor adjustments I'm confident of getting a good balance. A few of the units we are using are placeholders I cobbled together, but they don't look too bad. If you could improve them or make new ones that would be great, but I would be happy enough to release the scenario with what I have.

The Ro.37, GE-23, D.XXI, G.I, C.X, He-112. Ba.65, He-70 and BR.20 are the ones I have modded with varying success. In game they look Ok, but having the real things would be the icing on the cake. No pressure intended. I'm just going with "you don't ask, you don't get"



@UNITS
Infantry, nil, 0, 0.,0, 1a,30d, 2h,1f, 1,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Engineers, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,2d, 2h,1f, 8,0, 5, nil, 000000000000000 ;Engineer slot
Civil Guard, nil, 0, 2.,0, 3a,4d, 3h,1f, 1,0, 1, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Rep Infantry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,4d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Milicianos, nil, 0, 2.,0, 4a,4d, 3h,2f, 1,0, 1, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Int Brigades, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,8d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Gudaris, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,6d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Fifth Column, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 6, nil, 000001000000000 ;Musketeer slot
Assault Guard, nil, 0, 2.,0, 7a,6d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Communist Militia, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,5d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Nat Infantry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,4d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Regulares, nil, 0, 2.,0, 10a,5d, 4h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Legionario, nil, 0, 2.,0, 10a,6d, 4h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Falangists, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,4d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Requetés, nil, 0, 2.,0, 7a,4d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Italian CTV, nil, 0, 2.,0, 7a,5d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Condor Legion, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,6d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Catalan Infantry, nil, 0, 2.,0, 7a,5d, 3h,2f, 2,0, 0, nil, 000001001000000 ;
El Alcázar, nil, 0, 0.,0, 0a,20d, 10h,1f, 40,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000 ;
R Commander, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,8d, 5h,1f, 4,0, 1, nil, 000001001000000 ;Knight Slot
N Commander, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,8d, 5h,1f, 4,0, 1, nil, 000001001000000 ;
Nat Motor Inf, nil, 0, 3.,0, 7a,9d, 3h,2f, 12,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Rep Motor Inf, nil, 0, 3.,0, 7a,9d, 3h,2f, 12,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Nat Arm Car, nil, 0, 4.,0, 5a,12d, 3h,2f, 20,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Rep Arm Car, nil, 0, 4.,0, 5a,12d, 3h,2f, 20,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Nat Armoured Truck, nil, 0, 3.,0, 6a,9d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Rep Armoured Truck, nil, 0, 3.,0, 6a,9d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
FT-17 Tank, nil, 0, 3.,0, 10a,11d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Trubia Tank, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,10d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 1, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Fiat CM Tank, nil, 0, 3.,0, 9a,11d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
Panzer IB, nil, 0, 3.,0, 10a,10d, 3h,2f, 5,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
T-26B Tank, nil, 0, 3.,0, 12a,10d, 4h,2f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
BT-5 Tank, nil, 0, 4.,0, 12a,10d, 4h,2f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
AT Gun, nil, 0, 2.,0, 12a,3d, 1h,3f, 10,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
75mm Cannon, nil, 0, 1.,0, 15a,3d, 1h,3f, 15,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
155mm Cannon, nil, 0, 1.,0, 22a,3d, 1h,3f, 20,0, 0, nil, 000000001000000 ;
AA Cannon, nil, 0, 1.,0, 6a,5d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 1, nil, 010000001010000 ;
Flak 88 Cannon, nil, 0, 1.,0, 10a,6d, 3h,3f, 10,0, 0, nil, 010000001010000 ;
Bunker, nil, 0, 0.,0, 0a,15d, 5h,1f, 40,0, 1, nil, 010000000000001 ;
Supply Convoy, nil, 0, 3.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 40,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000 ;Cost 40?
Port, nil, 0, 0.,0, 8a,99d, 9h,9f, 1,0, 0, nil, 010100000000001 ;
Meridionali Ro.37, nil, 1, 10.,2, 5a,3d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Nieuport 52, nil, 1, 10.,2, 4a,3d, 2h,2f, 8,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Dewoitine D.510, nil, 1, 12.,2, 7a,4d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Grumman GE-23, nil, 1, 12.,2, 6a,3d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
I-16 Mosca, nil, 1, 14.,2, 11a,5d, 2h,3f, 12,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
I-15 Chato, nil, 1, 14.,2, 10a,6d, 2h,3f, 12,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
I-153, nil, 1, 14.,2, 12a,6d, 2h,3f, 14,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Fokker D.XXI, nil, 1, 14.,2, 10a,5d, 2h,3f, 12,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Fokker G.I, nil, 1, 14.,4, 10a,5d, 2h,3f, 14,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Breguet 19, nil, 1, 12.,3, 13a,4d, 2h,3f, 8,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Polikarpov RZ, nil, 1, 10.,3, 16a,5d, 3h,3f, 14,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Fokker C.X, nil, 1, 12.,3, 14a,5d, 3h,3f, 10,0, 0, nil, 000000000000001 ;
Potez 540, nil, 1, 12.,3, 16a,4d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
SB-2 Katiuska, nil, 1, 14.,4, 20a,7d, 4h,4f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Heinkel He-51, nil, 1, 12.,2, 6a,4d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Fiat CR-32, nil, 1, 12.,2, 8a,4d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Messerschmitt Bf-109, nil, 1, 14.,2, 13a,6d, 2h,3f, 18,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Heinkel He-112, nil, 1, 14.,2, 12a,6d, 2h,3f, 18,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Fiat G.50, nil, 1, 14.,2, 11a,5d, 2h,3f, 16,0, 3, nil, 000000000010000 ;
Breda Ba.65, nil, 1, 12.,3, 16a,5d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Henschel Hs-123, nil, 1, 12.,3, 16a,6d, 3h,3f, 10,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Heinkel He-70, nil, 1, 14.,4, 14a,7d, 3h,3f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000000000001 ;
Junkers Ju-87, nil, 1, 14.,3, 20a,7d, 4h,4f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Fiat BR.20, nil, 1, 14.,4, 18a,6d, 3h,4f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Savoia SM-79, nil, 1, 14.,4, 18a,6d, 3h,4f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Heinkel He-111, nil, 1, 14.,4, 20a,7d, 4h,4f, 12,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Junkers Ju-52/3m, nil, 1, 13.,3, 18a,4d, 2h,3f, 10,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Junkers Ju-52, nil, 2, 1.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 10,2, 4, nil, 000000100000000 ;Airlift
Transport Ship, nil, 2, 5.,0, 0a,3d, 2h,1f, 5,2, 4, nil, 000000000000000 ;
Supply Ship, nil, 2, 8.,0, 1a,3d, 3h,1f, 10,0, 4, nil, 000000000000000 ;
B-Class Sub, nil, 2, 6.,0, 10a,2d, 3h,2f, 14,0, 2, nil, 100000000001000 ;
C-Class Sub, nil, 2, 6.,0, 13a,3d, 3h,2f, 20,0, 2, nil, 100000000001000 ;
Legionarii Class, nil, 2, 6.,0, 13a,3d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 2, nil, 100000000001000 ;
Destroyer, nil, 2, 8.,0, 10a,5d, 3h,2f, 30,0, 2, nil, 100000000000001 ;
España class, nil, 2, 6.,0, 13a,13d, 4h,3f, 8,0, 2, nil, 000000000000000 ;Battleship (Old)
Cervera Class, nil, 2, 8.,0, 17a,8d, 3h,3f, 6,0, 2, nil, 000000000000000 ;Light Cruiser
Mendez Núñez Class, nil, 2, 7.,0, 17a,7d, 3h,3f, 6,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000 ;Light Cruiser
Canarias class, nil, 2, 8.,0, 20a,10d, 3h,4f, 8,0, 2, nil, 000000000000000 ;Heavy Cruiser
Admiral Scheer, nil, 2, 12.,0, 13a,13d, 3h,6f, 6,0, 0, nil, 000000000000000 ;Heavy Cruiser

 

[Fairline]

Hello mate

Looks good. I'll check out your game with Jerec. If and when I get back up to speed I'll have a look at the units - but it may be some time. Looks like you've had a pretty good go at making them yourself!

So, is anybody else still around? This place seems pretty quiet...

 

[McMonkey]

Its pretty quiet at present. I'm sure Curtsibling has a project on the go. Nichael recently released a Sci-Fi scenario; The Cruzan Colony and tootall_2012 appeared out of the blue with a really good WWII scenario: Battle of France 1944. There is always a hard core of lurkers chipping in with stuff. Civ2 chugs on! I have my usual selection of half finished scenarios on the go. All for ToT nowadays. I'm completely converted now, though I still enjoy a bit of MGE multiplayer action. I hope to have the SCW scenario finished and released this summer, then I can crack on with the ToT version of A Soaring Spirit and Bonaparte 4.

 

[Pablostuka]

Hello all, thank you very much for your efforts. I finally installed Test of Time and I have been able to replay my scenario (thank you fairline and catfish for upgrading it) with the new graphics. I have had a real good time, and now I can't stop playing it, and thinking about new features and improvements

Since 2003 or 2004 I haven't played Civ II, you guys made me play again!

Hi Pablo,

Did you take a look at the multiplayer playtest game Jerec and I are playing at CivWebring? The game is a lot of fun but there are a few balance issues due to the new events (IE the Nationalists are a bit too strong) and there may be a few too many event generated units which makes turns a bit long to play. These issues will be sorted in the final version. I have a long list of things to do, but there is nothing too taxing so I hope to have it ready within the next few months. I can still make some more changes before release.

The airlift now seems to work well and the Test of Time events make the arrival of units much more dynamic than the MGE events ever allowed. I do like the idea of Fighter Ace units, but this would mean cutting other units in the game. I have made all event generated units non-veterans so they have to gain veteran status in battle. Therefore fighter units with veteran status can be considered aces. It would be great to include individual ace's names, but with the lack of available unit spaces I would only be able to include perhaps one per side. Is that going to be worthwhile?

I have included Armoured Trucks and each side has one Armoured Car unit. I'm also considering adding Portuguese Viriatos for the Nationalist side. The Admiral Scheer being a missile does not work for me. The Wikipedia article said it caused extensive damage to Almeria. If it is a one shot weapon it could only destroy one enemy unit. Hardly extensive damage. The use of ships versus cities is fairly limited in the scenario. Most coastal cities have Coastal Batteries and attacking ships health soon deteriorates and it takes time to get them to a friendly port for repairs. I'm pretty satisfied with both sides naval capabilities so far.

It is a real pleasure to work on such a great scenario and give it the Test of Time upgrade. Thanks for giving your blessing to this project!

McMonkey

Hi McMonkey

The Nationalist should always be stronger than the Republicans, becasue their units are all veteran in-game. Keep in mind most of the army high-rank officers and best trained units (Army of Africa, and several rebel cities' garrisons like Zaragoza or Sevilla) joined the Nationalist side, and the Republicans kept many soldiers and low-rank officers, but their commanders didn't have the strategic view and experience of the rebel generals (except a few officers like Rojo, Miaja or Líster). I tried to adapt the situation in-game giving the Nationalists the Sunt-Zu wonder in Melilla.

I remember thinking for unfinished release v4 renaming the airfield city improvement (airport) to "airlift" or something like that, and keeping them unbuildable. I wanted to place them only in all African cities, and in Cádiz, Algeciras and Sevilla, to simulate the airlift of the African Army to the south of Spain, like historically happened (the African army not only arrived by sea, but by air). I would remove them from all the other cities. So if players would like to repair a damaged air unit, they should use the air bases, which are placed historically in game.

Another feature I wanted to include in the new release: buildable Polikarpov I-15 for the Republican side, but at a very high cost. Keep in mind that the Republicans received 140 I-15 from the Soviet Union, but also built in Spain from received parts another 287 more. The manufacturing plants of these airplanes were located in Alicante, Reus (Tarragona) and Sabadell (Barcelona). Maybe implement this in-game like Captain Nemo did in the unifinished Battle of Britain scenario? The player receives spare parts randomly in Barcelona, Alicante and Tarragona ports, and these spare parts can be converted into finished I-15, maybe by events...

What do you think about converting the Admiral Scheer into a nuke missile? Movement rate 1 (instead of what it moves now), it appears just near Almería (like it already does in-game), but instead of being player controlled, it will belong to the barbarian civ (like the Communist POUM near Barcelona). The barbarians would use it against Almería, and extensive damage would be caused to the city, killing all units. We can edit the pollution graphic to appear like debris and ruins, instead of pollution. It should be effective

Also the Communist uprising in Barcelona should have more impact in-game. The unit should be very powerful (in attack, but not in defense) and with a high movement rate, so barbarians (communists) will be able to gain control of the city, like it happened. The Republicans should be able to regain control of the city quickly and without difficulties (that's why the POUM must have powerful attack but weak defense).

I have many new things in mind, now that I am playing extensively the scenario again.

 

[McMonkey]

Pablo,

Perhaps you would like to have a look at the modified scenario I have done so far. I could e-mail you the files (if you can send me a message with your preferred e-mail address). I have made extensive changes, including most of the ones you suggested to me a year or two back. The events are almost totally new as well as many of the units and I have also made some alterations to the stats and the terrain. I have kept a detailed record of all the changes made and all the proposed changes. Bear in mind though that my current design is intended primarily for multiplayer and the test game I am playing against Jerec is intended to highlight any balance issues and find any bugs and changes needed. Perhaps I can finish this version for multiplayer and you could use it as the basis for single player versions? Obviously it is your scenario and you can do whatever you want with the ToT conversion that's already out there, but I think the changes I have made have added to the game. You could always reverse engineer the changes you don't like and keep the ones you do.

I understand what you say about the Army of Africa being the only effective fighting force at the start of the war, but I believe it will be adequate just to give these units veteran status. The Legionaries and Regulares already have better stats than other Infantry, so making them veterans too does make them a really effective offensive arm. However, giving the Nationalists the Army of Africa (Sun Tzu) wonder is too big an advantage as all of their units (especially cheap Civil Guards and Nationalist Infantry) are veterans too, and it is possible to produce hundreds of these!

The solution I found for the Army of Arfica's airlift was to create a number of Ju52 Airlift units via events in North Africa. These aircraft are technically ships with a carrying capacity of 2 and the paradrop ability. This way they can go back and forth between North Africa and south eastern Spain carrying Infantry units with them. In the multiplater game this works really well. Of course in a single player game the AI would have no idea how to use them (it seems to use them as paratroopers to capture empty cities!), but then again would an AI controlled Nationalist side use airfields to get the Army of Africa to Spain?

For me the solution in a single player game would be to use the airlift unit in a human controlled Nationalist game and have a separate scenario file for a human controlled Republican game where the Army of Africa are created via event in Sevilla. The beauty of ToT is that you can create many units with one event, not just one at a time.

The I-15 idea is neat, but I personally think that it is unnecessary as the events adequately cover the the supply of foreign arms to both sides. I did include a couple of new ideas. One was the Supply Ship / Port combo. Basically supply ships are created out at sea by events. They need to slip past any blockading units to a friendly port (a barbarian unit). Here the supply ship docks (attacks) the post (invincible barb unit) and this triggers an event granting the player the shipment. The event could be whatever you want; aircraft, money, tanks. In my scenario I think I made the event give money and a Supply Convoy unit or two. There units only purpose is to be disbanded for their high shield value. It is represented by a truck, and this truck can drive to wherever it is required and be disbanded to significantly boost production.

I see what you want to achieve with the Admiral Scheer and the nuke idea could work. I suppose you could do a similar thing with the POUM rising in Barcelona. One thing I would bear in mind is that a Civ2 scenario should also allow for alternative historical outcomes, and trying to force certain historical events to happen in the game can sometimes detract from the overall flow of the game. I expect most players would only get caught out by a barbarian nuke once, and if they happen to check the events or hear about the unit before playing they will probably avoid the nuke trap altogether. Personally I think a powerful German warship terrorising the Republicans gives a good impression of German aid at see, even if is not 100% historically accurate for it to stick around for a while.

I'm really glad the Civ2 bug has got you again I look forward to discussing ideas with you.

 

[McMonkey]

There are two other major changes I should mention in my multiplayer version.

Firstly, there is stackable terrain. I think this is an essential part of almost every modern scenario. Without it there is no safe way to move large bodies of troops on a large map like this.

Secondly, the sceanrio is way more mobile now. It is possible for the Army of Africa to cross from Morocco, march on Madrid whilst fighting minor battles and attack the city before the end of 1936. In the original version this was just not possible. You might be interested to look at the previous PBEM between Jerec and myself using the MGE version of the game. In the end the combination of slow units, pillaged roads and no stackable terrain turned the Nationalist army into a very vulnerable, lumbering rabble. As you will see in the ToT game versus Jerec the Nationalists can get around and attack much more effectively.

I wanted to make use of much more of the map than just the roads so I gave all Infantry units the Alpine ability and increased the road movement multiplier to 9 (i think). This means that the whole map is now a battlefield and both sides have to build up defensive lines in the countryside and not just pile up in cities. This has worked pretty well so far, and with a bit more tweaking I think the multiplayer game will play in a remarkably historically accurate way. The excellent map helps focus the fighting on key cities, especially since ToT allows the designer to make mountains impassable to land units!

 

[techumseh]

Hello Gareth, welcome back!

 

[Fairline]

Thanks Brian

So, what are you working on?

 

[techumseh]

Thanks Brian

So, what are you working on?

Actually, nothing for nearly a year. Several incomplete projects have been left sitting on my computer; Burma, 3rd Battle of Kharkov, and La Grande Armee: 1805-07.

 

[Kyriakos]

If you need any gfx you can ask, although obviously everything is looking amazing already

 

[McMonkey]

Thanks. I think the units are the only element slightly lacking at the moment, though the place holders are adequate enough for now.