Spartans and Longboats

[Rohirrim]

To assign the Byzantines the Dromon (as their identifying unit), while denying the Vikings the Longboat, is ludicrous. The Romans get the Legionary, the Greeks get the Hoplite (see below) – and the Vikings get the Berserker??? As any schoolchild in America could tell you, Viking means Longboat.

Please update this incredible game. As a descendant of Vikings, it annoys me every time I play this thing. Here’s my advice:

1. Change the representative unit of the Vikings to the Longboat.
2. The Longboat should be available to the Vikings at about the equivalent of 800 AD, prior to Feudalism (which many historians argue the Vikings helped bring about).
3. The Longboat should be able to carry four (4) units at its inception, whether they are Settlers, Workers, Swordsmen, etc. In other words, if you’re on a map with Vikings, you’d better think seriously about building walls, fortresses and defensive units early in the game – especially along your coastlines!
4. And here’s the real kicker – Allow the Longboats to travel up rivers! (or at least the larger rivers, say, the ones with deltas).


I believe these changes would heighten the historical accuracy of an already incredible game, and lead to a lot more fun for us Nordic aficionados. Just for fun, you could also allow the player using the Vikings to choose their own sail and/or figurehead designs (like players can do in “Pirates”) At least the sails could be solid purple, rather than the same design used on all galleys in the game. I also had another idea; that anytime a Viking Longboat gets launched, the opening phrase of Wagner’s motif, “Ride of the Valkyrie” plays, but I’ll save that for another post.

Another suggestion: Where’s the Spartans? Talk about your truly, militaristic societies. How can I play the Peloponnesian War without Spartans? I’m not nitpicking, just trying to improve an already amazing game. Again, keeping with historical accuracy, the Spartans should have the Hoplite. The Greeks should be represented by the Trireme (and they should be allowed to build a lot of them – fast), though they should also have the Hoplite.

Here’s another possibility: How about allowing a game play function that separates the ancient, from the modern, world? In other words, a player could choose to play a huge game that doesn’t extend beyond, say, 500 AD. , or they could choose to start at 500 AD. on up, or they could play the entire range. Of course, the Alpha Centauri option would disappear for the Ancient game, and the technologies would come slower, but the domination, cultural victory, etc. options would remain intact.

I’m looking forward to Civ IV. Hopefully, some of these changes are part of it.

I envision that someday, the home computer will be able to run a program like Massif (the program used to create the Pellennor Fields battles in Lord of the Rings) and the entire CIV game (whatever number edition it is by then) will be played in real time, streaming video, and players will sit in front of their 48” plasma screens shouting commands as the battle rages.

 

[searcheagle]

To assign the Byzantines the Dromon (as their identifying unit), while denying the Vikings the Longboat, is ludicrous. The Romans get the Legionary, the Greeks get the Hoplite (see below) – and the Vikings get the Berserker??? As any schoolchild in America could tell you, Viking means Longboat.

The reason I assume that the Viking's UU was selected because the Vikings are known as raiders. When I think of raiders, I think of raiders jumping out of a boat, into unto land, raid, and terrorize the local population. This is a more more unique ability and up to the age of the marines, the vikings are the only civ that can do amphibous landings.

4. And here’s the real kicker – Allow the Longboats to travel up rivers! (or at least the larger rivers, say, the ones with deltas).

That is a big problem with Civ right now. There are no large rivers. To give ONLY the Vikings this ability would be off balancing. River going ability is something that should be added in CIV 4 and that should be for more then just the longboat.

I believe these changes would heighten the historical accuracy of an already incredible game, and lead to a lot more fun for us Nordic aficionados. Just for fun, you could also allow the player using the Vikings to choose their own sail and/or figurehead designs (like players can do in “Pirates”) At least the sails could be solid purple, rather than the same design used on all galleys in the game. I also had another idea; that anytime a Viking Longboat gets launched, the opening phrase of Wagner’s motif, “Ride of the Valkyrie” plays, but I’ll save that for another post.

 

[Chazbagel]

Spartans should have Hoplites? The last time I checked, Sparta was a city in Greece, A Greek City-State. If they included spartans in the game, they would have to have Trojans, ect. No Spartans. Although I think that the hoplites offense should be upgraded to 2, because the Numidian Mercenary, is 2 Offense 3 Defense, while the hoplite is 1 offense, 3 deffense. Hoplites are better than Mercs in real world history.

And if you don't like the Byzantine Dromon..... why is it ur avatar.

 

[Rohirrim]

Spartans should have Hoplites? The last time I checked, Sparta was a city in Greece, A Greek City-State. If they included spartans in the game, they would have to have Trojans, ect. No Spartans. Although I think that the hoplites offense should be upgraded to 2, because the Numidian Mercenary, is 2 Offense 3 Defense, while the hoplite is 1 offense, 3 deffense. Hoplites are better than Mercs in real world history.

And if you don't like the Byzantine Dromon..... why is it ur avatar.

I didn't say I didn't like the Dromon. I do. I just think, in all fairness, not to mention historical accuracy, that just as the Dromon represents the Byzantines, the Longboat should represent the Vikings.

Sparta was not a Greek city/state, but it's own entity - apart from Greece. For most of Greek history, Sparta was the Greeks chief enemy, and headed a coalition of other Greek states (Corinth, Boeotia, Thebes, etc.) against Greek hegemony - hence, the Pellopennesian War. Sparta's culture, philosophy and politics were completely at odds with Greece's. The Hoplite was made famous by the Spartans, just as the Trireme was made famous by the Greeks. Greece was the naval power of the Aegean, and the Spartan phalanx of Hoplites was the power on land. Lumping the Spartans in with the Greeks is just plain wrong. It would make just as much sense to lump the French in with the Germans and call Paris a German city/state.

BTW, the Spartans won the Pellopennesian War.

 

[Rohirrim]

The reason I assume that the Viking's UU was selected because the Vikings are known as raiders. When I think of raiders, I think of raiders jumping out of a boat, into unto land, raid, and terrorize the local population. This is a more more unique ability and up to the age of the marines, the vikings are the only civ that can do amphibous landings.



That is a big problem with Civ right now. There are no large rivers. To give ONLY the Vikings this ability would be off balancing. River going ability is something that should be added in CIV 4 and that should be for more then just the longboat.

Some eras in history are controlled by "offbalancing" of technologies. The English Longbow is a good example. Or the Greek phalanx. The Viking Longboat offered just such an advantage to the Vikings; a shallow draft, fast vessel which could sail up rivers and disgorge its raiders. As far as amphibious landings go, the Greeks were very good at it and were well-known to beach their Triremes in a heartbeat to launch a land assault of hoplites. Besides, these advantages of technology only last a short period of time and there are always ways around them. The Roman legions were defeated many times by the Germans simply because the Germans would lure the over-confident Romans into the forests and dilute the strength of their phalanx. Or think of the Americans vs. the British. Anyway, I see no problem with giving different civilizations their due advantages for a set period of time. Just like in history, other civilizations (if they're smart) weather the storm and learn to overcome it. Just as the Dromon's early bombard ability is a short-lived advantage, so should the Vikings have the Longboat - with marine capability, river navigation, and a larger payload.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

I didn't say I didn't like the Dromon. I do. I just think, in all fairness, not to mention historical accuracy, that just as the Dromon represents the Byzantines, the Longboat should represent the Vikings.

Sparta was not a Greek city/state, but it's own entity - apart from Greece. For most of Greek history, Sparta was the Greeks chief enemy, and headed a coalition of other Greek states (Corinth, Boeotia, Thebes, etc.) against Greek hegemony - hence, the Pellopennesian War. Sparta's culture, philosophy and politics were completely at odds with Greece's. The Hoplite was made famous by the Spartans, just as the Trireme was made famous by the Greeks. Greece was the naval power of the Aegean, and the Spartan phalanx of Hoplites was the power on land. Lumping the Spartans in with the Greeks is just plain wrong. It would make just as much sense to lump the French in with the Germans and call Paris a German city/state.

BTW, the Spartans won the Pellopennesian War.

Eh? The Spartans were as Greek as the Athenians: they spoke Greek, they looked Greek, they were considered Greek by both themselves and other Greeks! All of Greece was city-states; Sparta simply had the best land army and the weirdest laws. Athens and Sparta were the major Greek powers, each at the head of its own League; Athens at the head of the Delian League, Sparta at the head of the Peloponnesian League. But both were Greek. It was rather in the way Italian city-states aligned themselves as Guelphs (pro-Pope) and Ghibbilline (pro-Holy Roman Emperor), or German states aligned themselves as pro-Prussian or pro-Austrian.

It would be too nitpicky to put the Spartans as a separate civ. And don't forget the fact that the Spartans helped the Athenians defend Greece in the Persian Wars, even sacrificing themselves (in the Last Stand of the 300 at the Battle of Thermopylae) to defend Athens (the Persian objective).

"Simplify, simplify, simplify."--Soren Johnson
AND
"KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID!!!!"

 

[Chazbagel]

My point. Isn't it funny how one of the Greek City names in Civ III is Sparta? O wait, its the second city! Hah, amazing. I personally think that Trojans > Spartans.

 

[Princeps]

Another suggestion: Where’s the Spartans? Talk about your truly, militaristic societies. How can I play the Peloponnesian War without Spartans? I’m not nitpicking, just trying to improve an already amazing game. Again, keeping with historical accuracy, the Spartans should have the Hoplite. The Greeks should be represented by the Trireme (and they should be allowed to build a lot of them – fast), though they should also have the Hoplite.

Spartans?... they were a greek society, rather the macedonians...

Hoplites used phalanx formation, that conquered the whole persian empire.
So hoplite should remain as greek UU. And spartans should not be encluded.
Triemes were great, but they were in general use almost everywhere in the mediterranean.

But, what about the selekids, they were a very potential civilization that united the best about the persian and greek societies.

 

[Chazbagel]

What would a Spartan look like? Isn't a Spartan a person that was born and raised in Sparta? They would look like citizens?

 

[sir_schwick]

The Sparta/Athens question is a very difficult one because the distinction depends on the historical period. I thought that Peloponnessia and the Attica regions were invaded by different peoples in 1st millenia BC. After a point though, they were both Hellenic deviants rather than truly seperate civlizations.

Also, it would be Ililum, not Troy. Besides, Ilium was not originally a Greek colony. Byzantium was.

The Hoplite was the best heavy infantry in the Hellenic world. The 1/3/1 stat relegates it ot the role of spearmen, which it definitely was not. Saying Spartan Hoplites were spearman is saying that Swiss Armoured PIkemen were spearmen. They could easily be employed as offensive units and often were.

Also, the Longbow needs to be an English unique unit(5/1/1) and Crossbows should be the common unit. I almost never use crossbows as the English in MTW.

 

[h4ppy]

Sparta is Greek and is part of Greece, as under representant as CivIII is I think that Sparta is the least of our problems, in terms of unrepresented people.

 

[Rohirrim]

My final argument: I just think the Spartans stood out because of their militaristic philosophy - the whole "Way of the Warrior" thing. It would be interesting to see a completely militaristic/timocratic society evolve into the modern era. Of course, they'd probably just end up being Fascists. The Greeks and Spartans were both consumed by the Macedonians, who then were consumed by the Romans. I just like the Spartans for the "What If?" possibilities.

In its time, the Spartan Hoplite was the most feared fighter in the world. The Greeks would not come out from behind their walls to fight a land battle with them even when the Spartans were burning all of Attica to the ground. Instead, they used their Triremes to chip away at the coasts.

 

[sir_schwick]

The real insult to Athenians or Spartans is that Alexander The Great is the leader of the Greek civilization. Alexander The Great was Macedonian and if you told anyone of Greek decent he was Greek, they would rip your genitals off.

 

[Chazbagel]

The real insult to Athenians or Spartans is that Alexander The Great is the leader of the Greek civilization. Alexander The Great was Macedonian and if you told anyone of Greek decent he was Greek, they would rip your genitals off.

I will remember that when talking to someone that is Greek. I would rather keep my genitals.