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barron of ideas
Barron
Stupid politician is pretty much redundent. Why would anyone who is smart want to be in that line of work? Power and money, I guess, but at what cost?
How can you tell a politician is lying? If his lips are moving.
How can you tell a politician is lying? If his lips are moving.
taper
Meet Tux
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Virtually every historian considers Greece the origin of democracy. It is accepted historical fact. Get over it. I've also never heard of the Summaritans. Are you trying to refer to the Samaritans? Or maybe the Summerians?
'Hard coded'? Hardly. There have been 27 Amendments to the original US Constitution, and the people have the power to add more at any time. I'd like an example of problems caused by our democractic laws. And I never said we had the first democracy, only that the US gov't was a democracy before the UK, which was still ruled by a king. (A Parliment that simply advises the king or has control over regions of a country doesn't count as a democracy, as long as there is a central unelected ruler)
Remember, the world was a much different place in ancient times. Men ruled the world, it made sense to them to limit power and influence to themselves. The fact that the common man had say in who ruled him made it a democracy.
PS. If you think the women didn't have any influence over the men, then you've never been in a serious personal relationship.
Someone mentioned the era of the Armada and Queen Elizabeth (who was a great leader and spearheaded the idea of globalisation).
I am aware that Spain controlled the lowlands at this time. It was not very nice as the Dutch were revolting against Spain and as the resistance refused to die, the Spanish decided it best to kill civilians and created entire ghost towns.
Great Britain was weak at this time and not able to help in the way that it perhaps wanted to. There were several "ideas" for invading Spain but the Queen rejected them. Instead they concentrated on sending privateers (including Sir Francis Drake) after the Spanish Galleons. Britain also sent leaders to Holland to help the resistance.
The British Empire followed as a direct result of the decisions made at this time.
I am aware that Spain controlled the lowlands at this time. It was not very nice as the Dutch were revolting against Spain and as the resistance refused to die, the Spanish decided it best to kill civilians and created entire ghost towns.
Great Britain was weak at this time and not able to help in the way that it perhaps wanted to. There were several "ideas" for invading Spain but the Queen rejected them. Instead they concentrated on sending privateers (including Sir Francis Drake) after the Spanish Galleons. Britain also sent leaders to Holland to help the resistance.
The British Empire followed as a direct result of the decisions made at this time.
jack merchant
Internationalist
In fact, women, slaves and immigrants did not have the vote for most of Britain's democratic history either, so the point is moot. Just like in the Athenian democracy, the vote was restricted to men of property and/or nobility. So, whichever way you look at it, the British patently did not invent democracy.
I do not see how a constitution is undemocratic. The Dutch constitution [the only one I am somewhat familiar with] has provisions on how it may be amended through the democratic process, most recently in 1983. So does the American Constitution. If you have a bone to pick with the 'hard-coding' of laws, you should probably look at international treaties instead, as they supersede national law.
barron of ideas
Barron
Not to pick nits, but the US of A was designed as a Republic, a Federal Republic, to make it harder for a government to overcome the will of the people (men with money or property who were entitled to vote at the time, not all men, certainly not indians (damn, into the red indian problem again) or slaves and certainly not women. Mostly age 21, and to be in congress 25, 30 for a senator, 35 for President and native born.
You can call it a democracy, if you want, but Lincoln said, "how many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg? Four, because a tail isn't a leg."
Franklin was asked what kind of government the constitutional convention had devised. He is reported to have said, "A Republic Sir, if you can keep it."
The national government is a lot stronger now than it was designed to be. This is probably true in most places, other than Somalia, where they don't have one.
Our government has evolved and gotten more democratic, but I doubt it has reached democracy, and except for some New England towns, democracy where all the citizens vote on the issues is likely not to work for large entities. Parliamentary systems are often representative democracies (although the old Soviet Union had a parliament.)
Democracy is one of those fuzz words that expands or contracts to mean what you want it to. The East Germans were the Democratic Republic of Germany. Well, if it means you have one party elections, what does "democratic" mean?
You can call it a democracy, if you want, but Lincoln said, "how many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg? Four, because a tail isn't a leg."
Franklin was asked what kind of government the constitutional convention had devised. He is reported to have said, "A Republic Sir, if you can keep it."
The national government is a lot stronger now than it was designed to be. This is probably true in most places, other than Somalia, where they don't have one.
Our government has evolved and gotten more democratic, but I doubt it has reached democracy, and except for some New England towns, democracy where all the citizens vote on the issues is likely not to work for large entities. Parliamentary systems are often representative democracies (although the old Soviet Union had a parliament.)
Democracy is one of those fuzz words that expands or contracts to mean what you want it to. The East Germans were the Democratic Republic of Germany. Well, if it means you have one party elections, what does "democratic" mean?
Rowain deWolf
King
Take a look at the Swiss which is probably as close to democracy as you can go.
Rowain
jack merchant
Internationalist
Then why claim so ?
Also, it seems you think the current British people are Celtic in origin. They are not. You might want to check this out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/anglo_saxons/saxons_1a.shtml
I'd like an example of problems caused by our ... laws.
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Abortion rights.
The right to live without fear of being shot.
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How is this a problem due to our constitution?
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Example: The constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, and denies the right to live in a society without arms.
The constitution was written to guarantee certain rights - rights that were valued (by some people) at the time it was written.
As society changes, the constitution becomes dated. Example: It was never written to cope with the question of abortion.
The problem is that the people are denied the freedom to change the constitution. Even denied the right to vote on whether or not weapons should be legal.
The US governement is not fluid and not able to adapt to new issues in the way that many other governments are.
As time progresses, new and unforseen issues will become a problem, but the written constitution will again deny the ability to adapt.
This is a huge debate with no right or wrong answer. It is a much matter of opinion, but as one of the oldest written constitutions - the USA has demonstrated that the concept cannot stand the test of time.
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Abortion rights.
The right to live without fear of being shot.
--------------------------------------------------
How is this a problem due to our constitution?
--------------------------------------------------
Example: The constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, and denies the right to live in a society without arms.
The constitution was written to guarantee certain rights - rights that were valued (by some people) at the time it was written.
As society changes, the constitution becomes dated. Example: It was never written to cope with the question of abortion.
The problem is that the people are denied the freedom to change the constitution. Even denied the right to vote on whether or not weapons should be legal.
The US governement is not fluid and not able to adapt to new issues in the way that many other governments are.
As time progresses, new and unforseen issues will become a problem, but the written constitution will again deny the ability to adapt.
This is a huge debate with no right or wrong answer. It is a much matter of opinion, but as one of the oldest written constitutions - the USA has demonstrated that the concept cannot stand the test of time.
taper
Meet Tux
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Denied the right to vote? Prove it. If you get enough signitures on a bill, it is put on the next national election, and is voted on. If it passes, it's law. Simple as that. The writers of the constitution knew that society changes as time goes by, so they put in the amendment process so the constitution changes too. It's known as a "Living Document". Last amended in 1992, it changes whenever a majority of the people want it too.
Did you even read that?!!!
The Celts were there before and after the Romans! The Saxons were from Germany... two entirely seperate groups of people.
The original inhabitants of the British Isles were Celts. This is the oldest civilisation.
"Anglo-Saxons" did dominate and could (perhaps?) be considered synonymous with "English". British and English is not technically the same thing.
barron of ideas
Barron
Rowain, I am pretty sure the Swiss have a Federal republic, with Cantons taking the place of States in the US. I seem to recall there was a big deal ab'out some of the cantons giving women the right to vote. I doubt there are big meetings of all the citizens to vote on issues. Like most modern governments they have a representative system, where voters select people to represent them in making laws.
it isn't easy to be a legal resident of Switereland, but it is easier than becomeing a citizen. I think you have to be born there to vote. I am not sure why you think they are more democratic than other nations.
I would be pleased to be better informed about the advantages of the Swiss system. They make good chocolate and watches. And their army requires nearly every male, as a member of the malitia, to have a rifle in their residence.
it isn't easy to be a legal resident of Switereland, but it is easier than becomeing a citizen. I think you have to be born there to vote. I am not sure why you think they are more democratic than other nations.
I would be pleased to be better informed about the advantages of the Swiss system. They make good chocolate and watches. And their army requires nearly every male, as a member of the malitia, to have a rifle in their residence.
Originally posted by jack merchant
Then why claim so ?
Very fair, I deserved that! It was because I was too lazy to look up who really deserves credit
I was not aiming to give credit to Britain, but to show that credit should not go to the USA.
Americans like to think theirs is the first "free country" which it clearly is not and infact, there is nothing revolutionary about their government.
barron of ideas
Barron
I thought there was a problem with the EU not wanting to consider English Chocolate as meeting their standards for amount of cocoa or butter fat or something.
We get Cadburys in the US and its fine, but not exceptional. Better than Hersheys, I will go that far, but there are a lot of fine chocolatiers around here (Seattle) and we are pretty spoiled.
A friend has a bumper sticker,
Just give me the chocolate and nobody gets hurt.
We get Cadburys in the US and its fine, but not exceptional. Better than Hersheys, I will go that far, but there are a lot of fine chocolatiers around here (Seattle) and we are pretty spoiled.
A friend has a bumper sticker,
Just give me the chocolate and nobody gets hurt.
It was actually an argument by France that Cadburry didn't make chocolate because they use vegetable oil. (Perhaps same as not enough butter-fat).
Most countries thought this was utter stupidity on the part of the French, but they were very sure that their recipe was the "correct" one.
The French won't even speak English on TV anymore because they believe French is the "correct" language.
Examples: Yesterdays anglo-franco summit, Eurovision contest... and anything else they host or participate in.
French complained about Cadburry more than any other company because it is highly succesful. Additional (side-issue) complaints that they had about it was that it was too sweet
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