Special Units

[barron of ideas]

My, the Swiss legislative situation looks complex. Of couse a lot of Western states have referendums and initiatives by the people, or can be initiated by the legislature with vote by the people. And recall of elected public officials, looks like the Swiss didn't pick up that particular approach to "democracy. But they still seem to have a federal republic, the cantons are a lot stronger than the states of the US are now.

Ok, I can buy the Swiss are more democratic than the US, or most other countries I know of, but they aren't the pure democracy of a New England Town Meeting or of Athens in the time of Pericles. Or was it a Tyrany then, or Autorcracy? Anyhow, in the ancient period a democracy was not governed/legislated for by an elected body, all the voters together decided on the laws. If you vote for representatives, then you have a representative democracy. Just voting may not make you a democracy, depends on if you have choices or not. There is voting in Iraq, Sadam gets 100% of the votes, or else.

 

[barron of ideas]

The British rifelman of the Napoleonic era had advantages over the french skirmisher including a longer range (because it was more accurate) weapon. But the rate of fire was slower, and there were not very many of them. As far as I know they had no impact on the Battle of Waterloo, which the French could have won by flanking the British, instead Napoleon, who was not on form that day, sent the old guard at the center of the line, and didn't make it. The French army, attacked on the flank by the Prussans, and in horror at the loss by the invincible old guard, disolved into rabble. Napoleon got off the battle field but abdicated again when he got back to Paris and found very few loyal

The French were tired of war, and of losing. It was exile to Elba, and island in the middle of nowhere where the British could keep an eye on him and make sure there were no more dramatic returns.

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by barron of ideas

The French were tired of war, and of losing. It was exile to Elba, and island in the middle of nowhere where the British could keep an eye on him and make sure there were no more dramatic returns.

The island of St. Helens in the Atlantic Ocean, actually (he was deported to Elba the first time around). But your point stands.

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by barron of ideas
The British rifelman of the Napoleonic era had advantages over the french skirmisher including a longer range (because it was more accurate) weapon. But the rate of fire was slower, and there were not very many of them. As far as I know they had no impact on the Battle of Waterloo...

I didn't mention Waterloo.

I do conceded that riflemen were few in numbers, and Illustrious suggested they weren't actually unique to Britain... it seems France was the odd one out in not using them.

Perhaps this means there's another UU for france. They get "French Riflemen" which are the same as others but cost more to build!

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by barron of ideas
... the pure democracy of a New England Town Meeting ...

This sounds interesting. What is it?

 

[barron of ideas]

There are a number of (smaller) towns in states like Vermont & New Hampshire, maybe Maine, too, in the area of the US known as "New England" (often includes Massachusetts, but I doubt towns on Massachusetts operate on the Town Meeting basis.

I believe it is once a year the citizens of the town get together in a meeting house and discuss the budget and other legislative issues and vote for selectmen who will lead the town for the next year. I have only read about it generally, perhaps others have more information. These are mostly pretty small towns, someplace llike Boston could never do it, no space is large enough. Where it is used, mostly everyone knows their fellow residents.

 

[barron of ideas]

Jack Merchant, you are right, it was St Helena. (Hits head with palm!)

Able was I ere I saw elba.
palindrome, reads the same backwards and forwards.

A man, a plan, a canal, panama.
is another.

on a much shorter basis some names like otto and nan.

Sorry, off topic, I have to stop hitting my head with my palm.

 

[troytheface]

to stormblind
burger king....hollywood....simpsons....hold it these are all american. No unique aesthetic? yeah, maybe in post war europe.

 

[barron of ideas]

I though Burger King was owned by British conglomerate.

 

[troytheface]

lol, damn could be right, i stand corrected. know it used to be owned by pillsbury-sounds rather english but still it is a spin off of macs- and fast food phenmo and car culture is definately american

 

[stormbind]

Car culture, American? I think you will find that England had more car manufacturers for it's size (at one time; I could list hundreds and they were all big cultural phenomina, not like Ford or Volkswagen) - mostly elite sports or luxury cars. Germany is acredited with starting the craze (Mercedez Benz).

Fast food, American? In what way? As already said, every country has a unique fast food except America... bugers and french fries are common the world over, I dunno who had it first but it's not unique to any nation - it's just part of the shared western culture.

The reason things spread is free trade. How can you have a unique culture when everything is traded imported/exported?

Hollywood, Simpsons, Burger King (and others that I mentioned) are just "examples" that demonstrate how free-trade has resulted in a "shared" western culture.

 

[jack merchant]

Stop hitting your head, barron ! "Errare humanum est".
Incidentally, that makes for a nice sig ! Now I'll just wait till someone corrects my Latin once more

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by stormbind
Car culture, American? I think you will find that England had more car manufacturers for it's size (at one time; I could list hundreds and they were all big cultural phenomina, not like Ford or Volkswagen) - mostly elite sports or luxury cars. Germany is acredited with starting the craze (Mercedez Benz).

I'd argue that the car culture started with the dramatic drop in car prices as a result of the introduction of mass production techniques, as engineered by Henry Ford with the Model T. The Volkswagen Beetle (German!), similarly, was designed to be affordable for the masses. Elite sports and luxury cars could not have started the car culture as their appeal was, obviously, limited to a small group. Small groups do not create culture.

Originally posted by stormbind


Fast food, American? In what way? As already said, every country has a unique fast food except America... bugers and french fries are common the world over, I dunno who had it first but it's not unique to any nation - it's just part of the shared western culture.

McDonalds was first, and they inarguably made burgers and french fries common the whole world over (regrettably, as my stomach can't stand them). While the favourite fast food may be slightly different from country to country, that does not mean that its origin is not American.

Originally posted by stormbind


The reason things spread is free trade. How can you have a unique culture when everything is traded imported/exported?
Hollywood, Simpsons, Burger King (and others that I mentioned) are just "examples" that demonstrate how free-trade has resulted in a "shared" western culture.

Very good point. However, if you look at imports as a percentage of GDP in different nations, you'll see that a majority of national income in most countries is still generated through national pursuits, including culture. [this is stretching definitions a bit , I admit]. For example, imports as a percentage of GDP in the United States are no higher than about 5%. Now, free trade may serve to very much reduce differences between countries, but there is still plenty of room for national peculiarities. Besides language, cultural differences are a very important factor for explaining why people haven't moved as freely around Europe looking for jobs as one might expect after the 1992 Single European Act.

 

[Illustrious]

Originally posted by jack merchant
Small groups do not create culture.

Actually they do. One very frequent phenomenon is the development of an "elite" cultural artefact that is subsequently adopted by the wider population (a concept once scathingly referred to as "aping ones betters"). The classic British examples are rugby football and cricket - both codified and perfected as "elite" activities, and subsequently adopted by a much wider public. I'd include tennis, but - in the UK at least - it's still a fairly elite activity. Mind you, the popularity of the sport around the world is much more classless, even though it started out as a pleasant thing for posh people to do on their croquet lawns.

EDIT:

Now I'll just wait till someone corrects my Latin once more

You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Why should anyone criticise your Latin - this time it's spot on!

 

[jack merchant]

re: aping one's betters

Hrm. Yes, to say that small groups do not create culture is probably to cut corners more than a bit. However, in order for something to become a part of mass culture, the masses must be able to afford it. I would argue that the mass motorization of society -with its cultural consequences - would not have happened, or would have been long delayed, if car manufacturers had not managed to cut car prices down to a level ordinary people could afford. I can't comment on cricket as here in the Netherlands it has always been an elite pursuit, and I'm not a member of the elite


P.S. Please feel free to correct any other rash statements I may make ! I'm only human after all

 

[Illustrious]

I couldn't agree more on the motor culture point. It illustrates that cultural uptake is often a multi-stage thing. The car would not have developed at all but for the initial patronage of the elite, who wanted - and could afford - the improved technology. Once the technology had evolved to the point where it was uniform and reliable enough to standardise, Ford began to churn out cars the middle classes could afford. The VW was probably the final step in the chain, as a car that the lower-middle and upper-working classes could afford. So we have a progression from elite monopoly to mass usage.

It's much the same with modern cultural technology - take the DVD player. When they first came out, they were hideously expensive and not many people could afford them. The price then began to drop and a mass market emerged. I'm trying to think how many DVDs Blockbuster carried back in the days when players cost GBP 5000 a throw - probably not many...! However, without the initial endorsement by the wealthy, I doubt the technology would have been mass-produced.

Equally, and this is where I especially agree with you, some elite products never attain mass-culture penetration, and so never become recognisable parts of the national "culture" - like croquet.

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by jack merchant
I'd argue that the car culture started with the dramatic drop in car prices as a result of the introduction of mass production techniques, as engineered by Henry Ford with the Model T. The Volkswagen Beetle (German!), similarly, was designed to be affordable for the masses. Elite sports and luxury cars could not have started the car culture as their appeal was, obviously, limited to a small group. Small groups do not create culture.

Volkwagen (started by British soldiers) is based in Germany... but regardless, I think it's the elite cars that create pride which is the cause of culture.

You gotta have the best in whatever market to have a culture, having the bread-and-butter means nothing.

Why does everyone bring up the T-Model, it has no place in world history. Oldmobile made the first American cheap car for the public, A-Model was Ford's first car.... T-Model was Ford's first commercial success! It has a place in Ford's history, not American or the World history.

 

[stormbind]

You may have a point with McDonalds starting as an American-export, but it's still a shared culture. It's in every mall in every city across Europe. You cannot say that McDonalds is not part of the British culture... because it clearly is.

And same goes for Cadburry chocolate, it started as a British export but is very well established on the shelves of every American foodstore. You wouldn't think, oh... that's strange British cultural stuff, don't touch! You just enjoy it and are glad to live in a country where western foods aren't banned!

What you have, we have... and what we have, you have.

I think people don't move around Europe much because...

1) Language barrier
2) Fear of being far away from friends/family
3) They aren't used to the idea yet
(although 2 and 3 are pretty much the same thing...)

 

[stormbind]

With regards to the DVD player, I don't even know where it started! I think of it as just "western".

Perhaps it was American, Japanese or European... makes no difference, all made in Taiwan!

On the topic of electrical goods. Phillips is a huge Dutch company that exports loads of stuff to everywhere... but if I hadn't lived there, I probably wouldn't realise it wasn't English!

One of the cool things about Phillips stuff is that they assemble stuff in there home country. If I open most items, it says "Made in Holland" but if I look under my MS Mouse it says... "Made in Mexico" (I didn't expect that! Mexico? )

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by stormbind
Volkwagen (started by British soldiers)

Volkswagen history