Specialist economy vs. cottages... help

[dime]

Right... winning quite handily at prince right now, but noticing that I have great success with specialist economy approaches whereas I am REALLY struggling with cottages. In fact, even with non-philo leaders, the specialist economy works well for me. I am usually ahead in tech right off the bat and never relinquishing the lead. I also have all my cities at the happiness cap throughout the game and can whip quite alot if necissary...

Now - when I try cottage spamming games I find myself struggling to keep up with the AI - especially in games where I go to war alot. The problem is not about pillaging - noone comes near my cottages - but it seems I am unable to manage growth up to the cap and simultaneously getting decent production AND growing those damn cottages to finally yield some output...

I think one root cause may be that I let most cities work one or two high production tiles and one food resource and then (in the early game) there simply isn't alot left for cottages (so lacking specialization) - however, the fact I have size 8 cities when the AI has size 14 (Cuzco was size 18 last night when I took it - my largest city was size 9) is pretty alarming...

So - I am looking for some advice on:

1. WHEN exactly do you start mass cottaging? I have noticed in the Emperor Master's Challenges that Aelf actually builds pretty few cottages early... when do I haqve to start getting cottages up to get real benefits?

2. Is it possible to actually run more of a specialist economy early (say up until 750AD or so) and then massively switch to a cottage-heavy economy, or is it just too late to get those cottages useful at that point? The large size of your cities and the fact alot of necessary infrastructure (Granary, Forge, possible Temples, Library, Courthouse, Market) are up would ensure that plenty of tiles could be worked immediately to facilitate growth

3. Would you generally pick cottaging as the approach or only with financial leaders (or only with non-philo leaders)?

4. When you run cottage-spam strategies - would you start by growing the city to the cap before making them work the cottages?

5. If applying a strategy that is heavily focused on whipping... would you at all care about building cottages early, or is it better to farm as you will constantly be focusing on "growing back" whipped pop?

I realize that some of these questions are situation-dependent... just frustrates me that I cannot seem to have a cottage approach that keeps up with the AI in the early game

/Andreas

 

[svv]

I'm no expert, but one thing I will say is that if you have a financial civ, it makes good sense to build a couple cottages early, near rivers (especially flood plain squares). As soon as it's built you'll get 3 commerce - one for the cottage, one for it being by the river, and one for the financial civ bonus. Plus it'll either be able to support itself with food (grassland square), provide extra food (flood plain square), or provide half its food and a hammer (plains square).

Generally there are better things for your workers to be doing than building cottages you won't have the pop to work for a while. Build temporary farms, or other improvements/roads. Also if you're building cottages near the river keep in mind that you'll want to keep at least one available for the farm, so that you can chain farms away from the river from it.

 

[mice]

2. Is it possible to actually run more of a specialist economy early (say up until 750AD or so) and then massively switch to a cottage-heavy economy, or is it just too late to get those cottages useful at that point?

/Andreas

I'm sure 750 AD isnt too late. In Aelf's first game the cottage spam takes place later than this I think. They have time to grow,especially with Free Speech, it's just a question of wether or not this boost in commerce is timed at the right time and that is situational.

Acidsatyr's discussion on an immortal game shows that specialists give the leg up to dominate the AI early on. What you do after that is up to you, and again it's situational.

I'm keen to see answers to your other specific questions

 

[Illithid]

Contrary to popular belief, the cottage economy is not the best economy as some would argue. As the game progresses a cottage economy will eventually generate more research, Early game though, you fall behind in research while you are using only cottages and hamlets.

The specialist economy can give you a quicker start on research especially when you use great people to lightbulb techs. The only problem with specialists is that you need the right terrain to support them. You either need access to a food resource or two OR access to fresh water and grasslands/floodplains.

For the most part if you seem to have more success with a specialist economy, I would likely try and stick with that play style. Just start recognizing locations where using cottages would be beneficial. An example of this is a heavy grassland area with no fresh water nearby, such as what you normally find when you clear a heavily jungled area.

In the end though playstyle can control how effective each type can be. Specialist economies get a quick start so press the advantage quickly and try to outgrow your opponents in order to hold the tech lead as the game progresses. cottage economies are more likely to aim for equallity early in the game and then press their strong research advantage later in the game.

 

[DaveMcW]

I think one root cause may be that I let most cities work one or two high production tiles and one food resource and then (in the early game) there simply isn't alot left for cottages (so lacking specialization) - however, the fact I have size 8 cities when the AI has size 14 (Cuzco was size 18 last night when I took it - my largest city was size 9) is pretty alarming...

Yes, that is the root cause. You should have three types of cities:
- food and cottages
- food and hammers
- food and gpp

Cottage cities don't need any building except a granary. Libraries, etc. are way too expensive for the small benefit they give.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Now - when I try cottage spamming games I find myself struggling to keep up with the AI - especially in games where I go to war alot. The problem is not about pillaging - noone comes near my cottages - but it seems I am unable to manage growth up to the cap and simultaneously getting decent production AND growing those damn cottages to finally yield some output...

I think one root cause may be that I let most cities work one or two high production tiles and one food resource and then (in the early game) there simply isn't alot left for cottages (so lacking specialization) - however, the fact I have size 8 cities when the AI has size 14 (Cuzco was size 18 last night when I took it - my largest city was size 9) is pretty alarming...

Definitely something broken there. Like you, I suspect that the production tiles are the problem. Or, to put a slightly different spin on it, I think you may be making the wrong tradeoff between commerce and buildings.

What's a cottage economy? Well, you should be working your improved food tiles first (for growth), then you work the tiles that give you the best commerce, and if you have food to spare after that, you find a way to convert it to something useful (whipping, replacing a cottage with a specialist, or whatever).

If your growth is lagging because you are working the production tiles, I suspect you need to reprioritize. Aside from the opening, where working the high production tiles gets the workers and settlers out faster, and in your specialized production cities, there really isn't that much of a hurry for hammers. Chop what you need quick, pop the rest.

On the other hand, if growth is lagging because you are happy cramped, then you need to learn to manage happiness.

1. WHEN exactly do you start mass cottaging? I have noticed in the Emperor Master's Challenges that Aelf actually builds pretty few cottages early... when do I haqve to start getting cottages up to get real benefits?

Immediately? Bureaucracy bounces the commerce in the capital, so you want to have a lot of commerce there when it hits.

3. Would you generally pick cottaging as the approach or only with financial leaders (or only with non-philo leaders)?

Im more likely to play around with specialists because I think it is more fun; cottages in my games have been more consistently effective on maps that make them possible.

4. When you run cottage-spam strategies - would you start by growing the city to the cap before making them work the cottages?

Yup.

5. If applying a strategy that is heavily focused on whipping... would you at all care about building cottages early, or is it better to farm as you will constantly be focusing on "growing back" whipped pop?

Both - whip, race back to the cap, switch to the cottages, lather rinse....

Another possibility is your tech order. Currency Guilds Banking tend to come a lot earlier in my commerce games than in my specialist games.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I would suggest you start with a financial civ and just focus on cottages to get some practice with them.

Some tips:
- Production is secondary to working cottages. Have one high food tile to grow your city and when you get unhappy citizens whip them to build. You can consider working extra food specials and extra hammer specials, but never work generic farms or mines. If this means that you get libraries later - too bad - working extra cottages is more beneficial.

- Getting at least three cottages working early in your capital is key - later on these become your first towns and produce tons of commerce.

- Cottage river tiles first.

- Commerce cities generally aren't good at building troops - initially you may need more production cities that you otherwise would have - maybe 50-50. Later on your mega production / heroic epic cities will build most of your troops and 75% of your cities can be commerce cities.

- Make sure you open up trade routes quickly.

- Cottages will beat specialists at producing science (excluding pyramids and early representation which is not always doable and has a big opportunity cost) - you can only produce 6 science per city from specialists and you can do that quickly with 3 hamlets (usually before you could grow the city and whip in a library). The biggest advantage of the specialist economy is getting the early GP which you can exploit by lightbulbing and trading for techs. That gives the specialist economy a faster start - but eventually you counter that as your cottages grow. That means:

- You want lots of early cottages - the sooner they are worked the quicker they become towns.
- Bureaucracy is huge to you - your early cottages are now towns producing at least six commerce and two food each.
- Your benefits orientate towards a late game win.

Cottages are very doable as an alternative and there are people who succeed extremely well with them. Once you get used to them, a mixed economy is probably best overall, tending towards specialists early and switching to cottages everywhere except the GP farm late.

 

[dime]

Another possibility is your tech order. Currency Guilds Banking tend to come a lot earlier in my commerce games than in my specialist games.

VOU and others - loads of great advice here... looks like my hypothesis is at least part right here. One thing though - the above statement is not intuitive to me... wouldn't markets, grocers and banks have an equal effect on both economies? I mean, I assumed that the gold generated by GPs was also subject to modifiers from these buildings, or?

/Andreas

 

[Paeanblack]

VOU and others - loads of great advice here... looks like my hypothesis is at least part right here. One thing though - the above statement is not intuitive to me... wouldn't markets, grocers and banks have an equal effect on both economies? I mean, I assumed that the gold generated by GPs was also subject to modifiers from these buildings, or?
/Andreas

Specialist economies have some juicier techs to chase up in the north half of the tech tree. Code of Laws, Philosophy, and possibly Drama are going to be more valuable than pushing for the bonus-buildings.

 

[xxsyrusvb]

I am by no means an expert as I am still playing on noble. But from what Ive learned so far (as I seem to have a very very simular playing style to you) is that:

1) Dont try fitting a square peg in a circled hole. In other words dont try forcing a city that might be specialized better.

2) Ive noticed that it is best (for me), to start off with a mix of farms and cottages and that way your not experienced the drawbacks to each one (ex: SE = strong start, CE= Slow start, strong end).

3) Ive learned that city specialization is key to either economy. If I run a CE, i ALWAYS make sure to have 1 or 2 food cities for specialization. And if i run a SE i make sure to have 1 or 2 PURE cottage cities. This is great in the beginning game as it lets me start my game and later on if i decided to go to a CE from a SE it will be alot easier.

4) And finally (my biggest downfall before i corrected it) Dont be an extremist. Dont live or die by anything. So with that said I ALWAYS seem to start the same way no matter SE or CE. In that I always set up a hybrid system first so that I can get better lay of the land as well as being able to set up at least what i consider my "crutch" city which is just a commerce city that way if i want to go SE i can finacially support it and if i want to run a CE, at least I have an early start with a major commerce city (later possibly adding $$ wonders to it)

These are just some tips Ive learned for myself. I am sure since you play on prince you know all of these though. So if I didnt help, please dont flame...I tried