[Speculation]Portugal

[ferretbacon]

It would be a poor idea to have a Carrack (Nau) replace a Privateer as the Dutch Sea Beggar already does that. It would make much more sense for it to be a Caravel replacement.

I do like the idea of it being earned earlier... at Compass rather than at Astronomy. Not sure what else it could do to differentiate itself.

I would like to speculate further, but I'm not of the opinion that the Portuguese should be a trade empire. I think instead they ought to receive significant boosts to exploration and a UA that promotes and rewards exploration.

Because of this, I'd have to see what the new Exploration social policy tree consists of.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

This is the coat of arms for the Portuguese royal house:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shield_of_the_Kingdom_of_Portugal_(1481-1910).png

 

[blackcatatonic]

I do like the idea of it being earned earlier... at Compass rather than at Astronomy. Not sure what else it could do to differentiate itself.

Extra movement points for that unit (as opposed to all naval units) would be the obvious way to go I would have thought. Combined with a Caravel UU that's available earlier, I think that would be enough to differentiate it from the English UA.

Another idea: a gold bonus for every Civ/City-State discovered?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Personnally, I see Feitorias will be a UI this time. They should work as a mini-culture bomb that acquires the central tile and surrounding water tiles.
No surrounding land tiles acquired.
No border adjacency restriction.
City placement adjacency restriction with both regular cities.
Starting point of a free ITR that cannot go foreign.
3 :civ5gold: TI cost.

 

[ferretbacon]

Extra movement points for that unit (as opposed to all naval units) would be the obvious way to go I would have thought. Combined with a Caravel UU that's available earlier, I think that would be enough to differentiate it from the English UA.

Yeah, extra movement occured to me, but that seems rather obvious and derivative. I was wracking my brain for something a little more interesting, especially since at the end of the day it's a UU that merely replaces the ocean exploration unit.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Yeah, extra movement occured to me, but that seems rather obvious and derivative. I was wracking my brain for something a little more interesting, especially since at the end of the day it's a UU that merely replaces the ocean exploration unit.

Carrack = Haakapellita of the seas perhaps ?

 

[ferretbacon]

Why not, I’ll put forth my proposition. In the end, I merged early naval advantages with monetary incentives activated by exploration. The second part of the UA is because Ferdinand Magellan was Portuguese, even if he was working for Spain. Compass is very important to Portugal because both of their uniques are opened by it.

UA: Age of Discovery Receive double gold when first meeting a City State; if you are the first to circumnavigate the globe, receive a free Social Policy and enter a Golden Age.

UU: Carrack (or Nau), replaces Caravel. Available at Compass instead of Astronomy. Same stats as Caravel except it receives +1 sight and +1 movement. If gifted to a City State, receive a gold bonus.

UB: Feitoria, replaces Harbor. Adds 5 and +50 HP; each ocean tile worked by the city generates +1 gold .

The obvious strategy would be to beeline compass as fast as possible and get a Carrack out. Send it off with the objective of circumnavigating the globe while hopefully meeting some CSs. The Feitoria gives the Portuguese the advantage of getting gold from ocean tiles, something every other civilization is losing. Basically, get a lot of gold with the Portuguese and use it to press an early advantage. When you're done exploring, cash in your Carracks if you wish.

 

[SkaisonFire]

I'm starting to think that I am the only person on civfanatics that actually doesn't want to see the zulu xD
it would be just another rush/warmonger civ wouldn't it?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I'm starting to think that I am the only person on civfanatics that actually doesn't want to see the zulu xD
it would be just another rush/warmonger civ wouldn't it?

Sorry, dude ! ... but this is really the wrong thread !

 

[bob massingbird]

My prediction :

Civ ortugal
Capital : Lisboa
Leader : Joao de Braganza
UU : Carrack. Replace caravel. Gain gold every time its discover other civs' or city states' cities.
UB : Padrao. Replace monument. +1 gold for every naval trade route in the city.
UA: Colonial Trade. Increased naval trade route range. Bonus gold for trade route between cities in different continents.

 

[Mr.Q]

These propositions (especially for the UA) are supposed to be alternative, right? Because if they were cumulative, they'd be way too good.

Yes, they are made to be alternatives at least in the case of the UA. Not that I mind if they give them all haha (I am portuguese). Look, I have made two suggestions for the UA - «Age of discoveries» and «Encompassing the globe». And the rest are a bunch of ideas, but the major concept beneath them is to highlight the idea of international maritime trade routes and culture benefits from the trade routes.

I'd prefer to design the civ in a way that makes them go for early (intercontinental) naval trade routes and (because it works so well gameplay wise coupled with trade routes, not because it's historical) make them a Diplomat civ trying to ally City States.

I agree, that's my point too. Not only about centered on trade but also somewhat focused on diplomacy bonuses from CS. You know, that influence stuff.

That would result in something like this:

UA: Double from meeting City States (makes you explore), +50% from international trade routes.
UU: Carrack (earlier Caravel with sight bonus that stays; the latter lets you chose other promotions to defend your routes)
UB: Feitoria (Seaport replacement, doubles range of trade routes (both land and sea to be useful on land maps as well) originating in this city, no upkeep cost)

UA: 50% gold from meeting CS that's cool but I think it doesnt work well on the long run. Although it might turn Portugal into a good candidate for hosting the world congress. Still, I advocate a culture bonus from international trade routes.

UU: Carrack or Nau, let's use some portuguese terms. Sight bonus is almost mandatory along with some movement bonus - also if you discover a CS with a Carrack/Nau you gain +50%

UB: Feitoria - I like your update on it. But I disagree on the upkeep cost, it must have some maintenance. I also disagree on the land trade routes bonuses, the concept of feitoria doesn't historically fits on it. (Thats why I wonder myself about a coastal start bias)

 

[Mr.Q]

My prediction :

Civ ortugal
Capital : Lisboa
Leader : Joao de Braganza
UU : Carrack. Replace caravel. Gain gold every time its discover other civs' or city states' cities.
UB : Padrao. Replace monument. +1 gold for every naval trade route in the city.
UA: Colonial Trade. Increased naval trade route range. Bonus gold for trade route between cities in different continents.

Nice alternative! But I prefer the feitoria.

 

[Scaramanga]

I've considered Carrack replacing Privateer and available with Astronomy since the Portuguese were glorified pirates in the Indian Ocean and coastal raided quite a bit. Also Caravel was a Portuguese invention and should be kept with them. Remove prize ship and lower the strength a bit too though.

 

[Mr.Q]

I put my feet back when talking about João II, Henrique, Feitorias and carracks. They were in civ III and IV, they are too used!

Maybe they are. But why change a winning team?

 

[Mr.Q]

I've considered Carrack replacing Privateer and available with Astronomy since the Portuguese were glorified pirates in the Indian Ocean and coastal raided quite a bit. Also Caravel was a Portuguese invention and should be kept with them. Remove prize ship and lower the strength a bit too though.

They shouldn't be viewed as a privateer. The carrack/nau is a portuguese concept of a caravel not from a privateer ship. The purpose of the carrack is to explore not to break trade routes - its all about discovering new lands and securing trade routes. When the portuguese want to break trade routes they declared war on the arabs and muslim sultanates. No need for privateers, just for a strong renaissance naval unit. I think that privateers work better with the dutch.

It would be a poor idea to have a Carrack (Nau) replace a Privateer as the Dutch Sea Beggar already does that. It would make much more sense for it to be a Caravel replacement.

I do like the idea of it being earned earlier... at Compass rather than at Astronomy. Not sure what else it could do to differentiate itself.

Totally agree!

I would like to speculate further, but I'm not of the opinion that the Portuguese should be a trade empire. I think instead they ought to receive significant boosts to exploration and a UA that promotes and rewards exploration.

Because of this, I'd have to see what the new Exploration social policy tree consists of.

You are right mr. I am glad that the Portugal speculation thread is back on track

 

[steveg700]

It would be a poor idea to have a Carrack (Nau) replace a Privateer as the Dutch Sea Beggar already does that. It would make much more sense for it to be a Caravel replacement.

So, just to be clear, you're saying that because there's a single civ out there that has a privateer replacement, no other civ should have a privateer replacement? On the back of that alone, it's a poor idea?

That doesn't work. There aren't enough units in the game to think you should only have a single replacement for each one. Symmetry is nice, but it doesn't enjoy the utmost priority.

UU: Carrack (or Nau), replaces Caravel. Available at Compass instead of Astronomy. Same stats as Caravel except it receives +1 sight and starts with Supply promotion.

UU : Carrack. Replace caravel. Gain gold every time its discover other civs' or city states' cities.

Few things to note here.

First, there's a minor semantics issue out. I know Civ IV used the word "carrack", but that's actually a Spanish word. The Portuguese use the word "nau" to refer to this type of ship. This was already mentioned earlier in the thread. Didn't stick, I guess.

Second, the caravel is a Portuguese invention. In fact, in the context of being the first to get out onto the oceans and being the first to explore the world, the caravel was *the* Portuguese invention. It's what let them do that. Doesn't make sense to swap it out, particularly with a ship that came later.

It does make sense to swap out the privateer, though. The Portuguese were the ones with the shipping lane monopoly, so they don't have a big need for privateers. Privateering was how the johnny-come-lately civ's got in on the action.

Speaking of cargo ships, that's really what the nau/carrack is. Of course, it had guns, but all cargo ships had guns. Contrary to how BNW is presenting cargo ships, nobody just sailed across an ocean in privateer-infested waters without a cannon (or even a spyglass for that matter, as cargo ships apparently have no line-of-sight). Given that incongruity, the nau makes about as much sense as a cargo ship replacement as it does a privateer replacement.

They shouldn't be viewed as a privateer. The carrack/nau is a portuguese concept of a caravel not from a privateer ship. The purpose of the carrack is to explore not to break trade routes - its all about discovering new lands and securing trade routes. When the portuguese want to break trade routes they declared war on the arabs and muslim sultanates. No need for privateers, just for a strong renaissance naval unit. I think that privateers work better with the dutch.

You'r right, privateers don't make sense for the Portuguese. So get rid of the privateer, and swap it out for the nau, giving it a whole different suite of promotions that help them escort cargo ships and defend against privateers.

Hopefully, the BNW dev's got this memo a long time ago.

 

[bob massingbird]

What if they choose 2 UUs, like Carrack and Larantuqueiros?

 

[Mr.Q]

Few things to note here.

First, there's a minor semantics issue out. I know Civ IV used the word "carrack", but that's actually a Spanish word. The Portuguese use the word "nau" to refer to this type of ship. This was already mentioned earlier in the thread. Didn't stick, I guess.

Second, the caravel is a Portuguese invention. In fact, in the context of being the first to get out onto the oceans and being the first to explore the world, the caravel was *the* Portuguese invention. It's what let them do that. Doesn't make sense to swap it out, particularly with a ship that came later.

True story. The caravel was the portuguese invention. But I don't see they changing the name, but giving a new name (nau) to the portuguese renaissance ship.

It does make sense to swap out the privateer, though. The Portuguese were the ones with the shipping lane monopoly, so they didn't need privateers. Privateering was how the johnny-come-lately civ's got in on the action, by going after Portugal's cargo ships.

Speaking of cargo ships, that's really what the nau/carrack is. Of course, it had guns, but all cargo ships had guns. Contrary to how BNW is presenting cargo ships, nobody just sailed across an ocean in privateer-infested waters without a cannon (or even a spyglass for that matter, as cargo ships apparently have no line-of-sight). Given that incongruity, the nau makes about as much sense as a cargo ship replacement as it does a privateer replacement.

Hopefully, the BNW dev's got this memo a long time ago.

You are right. Early privateering was all about breaking portuguese and spanish trade routes - a pratical manifest against Tordesillas treaty that divided the world between these two nations. I wouldn't like to see the nau as a mere cargo ship on steroids. They deserve both an exploration and a combat bonus.

 

[Scaramanga]

They shouldn't be viewed as a privateer. The carrack/nau is a portuguese concept of a caravel not from a privateer ship. The purpose of the carrack is to explore not to break trade routes - its all about discovering new lands and securing trade routes. When the portuguese want to break trade routes they declared war on the arabs and muslim sultanates. No need for privateers, just for a strong renaissance naval unit. I think that privateers work better with the dutch.

Portuguese used both Caravels and Carracks. Caravels for initial exploration, Carracks to move men and supplies (but they also had big guns). The Portuguese had nothing the Eastern kingdoms wanted so they had to rely on force in most instances. Carracks should probably not have Prize Ship promotion though I agree.

 

[Mr.Q]

What if they choose 2 UUs, like Carrack and Larantuqueiros?

Larantuqueiros? A UB would work better for Portugal rather than 2 UU. Specially than a land UU.