Spell Ideas for the Unimplemented Spheres

[Mewtarthio]

Flavor-wise I see this spell causing the archmage to infuse themselves with vast amounts of force energy, like the character Rand at the end of the book The Eye of the World. They become an Avatar of Dodga, the Angel of Force, (though maybe not a Dodga-sponsored avatar since we are talking about a mage here and not a priest) and leave a big crater where an enemy used to stand before they revert to being an old man with a staff. I would have the visual effect for this spell be exactly like Spring only yellow/gold colored.

I was picturing something more along the lines of traditional uber-powerful telekinesis. You know: The Archmage waves his hand, and half the enemy army is annihilated in a terrible shockwave, then raises his arms as enormous chunks of bedrock burst through the ground and hurl themselves at the survivors.

 

[Shatner]

Enrich is still very powerful for a level one spell. On what technology would you allow access to Creation mana? I would suggest either Sorcery or Arcane Lore. Most exotic mana forms (Metamagic - manipulating magic itself, Creation - creating things out of nothing, Force, Ice - Mulcarn is dead so it is harder to channel the energies of his sphere) should be very potent but come late in my view.

I agree it is really potent and I like the idea of balancing the sphere by having it be unlocked with the Sorcery tech. I also like the fact that the Kuriotates would start with the mana, giving them the inside track on terraforming and city growth (with the Cornucopia spell). Another good suggestion, STP.

I was picturing something more along the lines of traditional uber-powerful telekinesis. You know: The Archmage waves his hand, and half the enemy army is annihilated in a terrible shockwave, then raises his arms as enormous chunks of bedrock burst through the ground and hurl themselves at the survivors.

That works too. Whether you envision the archmage constructing a giant force-field mecha and stomping on people like Voltron, throwing giant energy balls and cratering the landscape like Goku or tearing up the battlefield with uber TK attacks like Jean Grey/The Phoenix the end result is the same; a feeble old man kicking the heister of your star city defender. Good stuff.

Moving on, any ideas for what the staple force 3 spell should be? I'm thinking an attack spell rather than a summon because a Force Creature is strange to conceptualize AND because the 3rd tier is already full of summons. That and the Grigori are the Force-aligned civilization; their hero-archmages would benefit from something deadly they could twin-cast.

 

[xienwolf]

For the Ultra Force 3 spell I do not think it should be removed by combat, but rather be a 1 turn duration, but the addition of a chance to wear off per turn is a nice compromise.

An easy/cheesy way to implement it as a single casting only would be to introduce a second Death 3 promotion which is only capable of casting the alternative spell (you'll have to have a second copy of that spell as well since spells don't have OR pre-req lines).

Thus when you are selecting a promotion for your Archmage, you wind up choosing "Force 3" and you are now able to cast Ultra Force and the secondary spell. But when you cast Ultra Force, it boosts your Strength, Removes "Force 3" and grants you "Force 3 (Spent)". "Force 3 (Spent)" allows you to cast ONLY the secondary spell, but not the Ultra Force (and still just displays the name "Force 3" so that the player doesn't have to know what the code is doing in the background )

 

[Shatner]

I assume you mean an alternate "Force 3 promotion" instead of "Death 3", right? With the implementation your suggesting I would have the duplicate Force 3 promotion allow both spells (Avatar of Force and [repeatable-spell-here]) so you aren't forced to expend your one-shot uber-cast just so you can gain access to the staple spell.

If you give the Avatar... promotion a reasonable chance of disappearing each turn (20% or so) and remove it if it is removed by combat then it'll prevent it being used to scare the AI from attacking the archmage. That way people will use it as intended... actually, I can't think of a good reason why it would need a duration longer than one turn. Can any of you think of a situation where you would cast the spell and then NOT immediately attack with your uber-mage? A one turn duration is much simpler to implement and prevents the spell being (ab)used as a Straw Giant spell. Hmm...

 

[xienwolf]

Oops, yeah.. I meant Force, edited.

 

[stp]

A few thought concerning Force I: First the idea of Magic Missile would be nice if we would get targeted spells back.
On Magic Armor: Why would a Force spell grant resistance to magic? I would expect such an effect from a Metamagic spell. Perhaps it should be more like a physical barrier, so an ingame effect like 1 or two points of defensive strength could be interesting. Perhaps with a 100% chance to wear of per turn. So a mage can use it to protect himself from an attack but sacrifices the ability to cast something else for it. So its basically an "retreat or hope the enemy moves away" promotion.

As I'm writing this I have another idea for the force or dimensional spheres: Stasis Field - the caster gets immobile and immune to all damage until he dispels it, but he can't do anything as long as it is active. This spell can be balanced by effecting only the caster or the whole stack, or by being affected by Dispel Magic.

 

[xienwolf]

Stasis Field would also have to require that you are not in a City when you cast it I imagine. But seems like a pretty cool spell. I can imagine using it to deny resources to enemies while at war, or to protect your own.

 

[Shatner]

Alright, looking it over the only Tier 3 damage spell is Enervation. So, we need a damaging spell and Force looks like a good place to put it. Cassiel will thanks us for it later.

How about this: Disintegrate. It does a large amount of damage to a single unit; as much as 75% or so in a single casting unmodified by resistance or spell power boosts and has no damage cap so it can feasibly kill the unit. If the unit is in a city than it reduces the defensive bonus by 10 or 20%. It functions similar to Meteor in that it bombards defenses and hurts BUT it doesn't do collateral damage which should make it more balanced. I'd give it a range of 2 or 3 tiles. With twin-cast this becomes double-stuffed with awesome, but then again so was Meteor so nothing new there.

The idea is that the archmage is negating the charge of the electrons within a substantial portion of the unit (and possibly the town's fortifications). With the strong binding force temporarily nullified, matter sloughs off the affected area and scatters into it's component atoms, appearing to crumble and vanish to the observer. Or, if that is too much science for a fantasy setting, it simply destroys matter (conservation of energy be darned).

 

[stp]

Stasis Field would also have to require that you are not in a City when you cast it I imagine.

Yes, I did in fact consider this, but forgot to write it down. Thanks for pointing it out.

Alright, looking it over the only Tier 3 damage spell is Enervation. So, we need a damaging spell and Force looks like a good place to put it. Cassiel will thanks us for it later.

A direct damage spell for Force could be interesting. As long as we have no targeted spells, how would you pick the target for Disintegrate?
I expect that unlike meteor, you do not plan to make Disintegrate actually a summon, so there would be no direct effect from twincast. (Of course it would possible to check whether the caster has the Twincast Promotion with a python check and add some additional power to the spell)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Stasis Field sounds more like a stasis spell, which in FfH is the same sphere as Ice. That might actually be a really cool spell for a high level "high priest of the hand" type UU for the Illians.


I'm thinking that a bonus vs both holy and unholy would be good for a Force (balance) sphere rather than magic resistance. A smell defensive bonus could be nice too.

 

[Shatner]

On Magic Armor: Why would a Force spell grant resistance to magic? I would expect such an effect from a Metamagic spell. Perhaps it should be more like a physical barrier, so an in-game effect like 1 or two points of defensive strength could be interesting. Perhaps with a 100% chance to wear of per turn. So a mage can use it to protect himself from an attack but sacrifices the ability to cast something else for it. So its basically an "retreat or hope the enemy moves away" promotion.

Alright, the resistance to magic could seem a bit odd depending on the role of Force energy within the setting (which I must confess, I'm a little unsure of... anyone? A little help?). That being the case, make the Mage Armor promotion be exactly like the Magic Resistance promotion EXCEPT for the actual resistance to magic. Basically, a small resistance bonus against each energy type.

I've considered several different takes on mage buffs and since you almost always want your casters to cower at the bottom of your stack, never defending unless no other option exists, any bonus to their defense stat is going to be a mixed blessing. With that, I'm disinclined to advocate a defensive bonus. What if we had the promotion give the mage a withdraw chance (30 - 50%, whatever seems good) so when they get jumped by an Assassin they'll have a chance of surviving thanks to their protective magic. This wouldn't work in town but I find most of my assassination attempts occur in the field... I bet that sentence is going to set off a few flags for some Homeland Security 'net sniffing protocol. The promotion should vanish after the unit withdraws (if possible) or after combat (if not).

As I'm writing this I have another idea for the force or dimensional spheres: Stasis Field - the caster gets immobile and immune to all damage until he dispels it, but he can't do anything as long as it is active. This spell can be balanced by effecting only the caster or the whole stack, or by being affected by Dispel Magic.

I've also been debating about impassible barrier spells (Wall of Force, Bigby's Interposing Hand and Force Cage anyone?) and I think they're a bad idea. The AI would probably have a hard time knowing how to use them effectively and a player would have a very easy time thwarting the AI with them. Just find any sort of natural choke point... and close it. I think all barriers need to be destroyable through combat OR you forgo barriers entirely and disable the enemies movement (which is functionally equivalent but the AI can handle that). If I had to think of an effect for Stasis Field I would make it give the unit a very large withdraw chance but deny them all XP gain (effectively turning them into Loki). So they can't really die but they also can't learn (like that warrior of Mulcarn's that is trapped on the island in the Ice scenario...). In fact, the more I think on it the more that sounds like a spell for the Ice sphere...

 

[xienwolf]

You know what would be a fun spell, possibly Chaos I guess, but not sure where it really fits, could work for Dimensional:

A spell which grants an enemy unit a Duration Limit And of course can remove Duration Limits from your own units (thus can counter the enemy using the same spell against you).

Sort of a "Time Bomb" effect

 

[Shatner]

A direct damage spell for Force could be interesting. As long as we have no targeted spells, how would you pick the target for Disintegrate? I expect that unlike meteor, you do not plan to make Disintegrate actually a summon, so there would be no direct effect from twincast. (Of course it would possible to check whether the caster has the Twincast Promotion with a python check and add some additional power to the spell).

I wasn't aware that twin cast only worked for summons. I thought spells like Maelstrom worked when twin-casted. If not... bummer. I'm reluctant to make this a direct-damage-summon spell like Fireball or Meteor so I'd have the SDK do something special, like you suggest, when the caster has the twin-cast promotion (provided that isn't too difficult). Probably increase the damage by whatever it's average damage output should be (so if the spell does between 25 and 75 damage then just tack on 50 damage to your roll and call it good). Or, you know, have it calculate damage twice and add those numbers together to function equivalently to casting the spell twice. You can't just double the result of one casting because that turns the bell-curve of damage your supposed to get when adding multiple random numbers together into a linear plot, making really low damage and really high damage more likely (which makes everyone sad).

As far as targeting, I'd make it strike the toughest unit in range, giving preferential treatment to city defenders so you can capitalize on the spell's bombardment aspect as well. To accurately model that I would take each unit's toughness in range multiplied by any city defense bonuses they are receiving, then pick the maximum number as my target. Since the spell has the potential to drop a unit to 1/4 health, you probably want to knock the toughest units in range down into the "easy pickings" category so your invasion or counter attack will be all the more successful.

Stasis Field sounds more like a stasis spell, which in FfH is the same sphere as Ice. That might actually be a really cool spell for a high level "high priest of the hand" type UU for the Illians.

MC, you and I seem to be thinking on the same wave-length about that spell.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think that Twincast used to boost direct damage spells (at least some of them), but it doesn't look like it does anymore. I believe that this was back before BtS, when these spells all worked through python instead of XML/SDK

Also, extension used to increase spell range (at least for some spells), but does not any more. I think this should be changed. Also, Metamagic should probably boost summons somehow.



I don't think that spells effecting duration fit well in chaos, or as a level 1 spell. That would be way too powerful. Such spells should probably be Meta Magic-Dimensional cross sphere spells.

It could also be nice to have an entropy (cross dimensional?) spell that boosts the unit's strength and arcane ability, but gives it limited duration. It could be cool if they could have their duration raised from combat, but would abandon you if you tried to be peaceful.

 

[stp]

I wasn't aware that twin cast only worked for summons. I thought spells like Maelstrom worked when twin-casted. If not... bummer. I'm reluctant to make this a direct-damage-summon spell like Fireball or Meteor so I'd have the SDK do something special, like you suggest, when the caster has the twin-cast promotion (provided that isn't too difficult). Probably increase the damage by 50% or, you know, have it calculate damage twice and add those numbers together to function equivalently to casting the spell twice. You can't just double the result of one casting because that turns the bell-curve of damage your supposed to get when adding multiple random numbers together into a linear plot, making really low damage and really high damage more likely (which makes everyone sad).

A few notes: From what I know python isn't actually the SDK (that's the code written in C++, faster but needs to be compiled). However, it is simple to check for a promotion via python and trigger the random number function determining the spells actual damage a second time, then add the two values together. What would the minimum damage of this spell be? If it is reasonable close to 75% then Twincast would result in an almost guaranteed kill making this spell somewhat similar to your Banish suggestions.

I have to agree with both you and MC on the Stasis Field. I should have considered that stasis is Mulcarns sphere. Still with a few changes I'm sure that it could be an interesting spell.

I wasn't aware that Twincast used to influence other spells, and I agree this should see a comeback. Also I can only agree that Metamagic should have an effect on summons.

 

[Shatner]

However, it is simple to check for a promotion via python and trigger the random number function determining the spells actual damage a second time, then add the two values together. What would the minimum damage of this spell be? If it is reasonable close to 75% then Twincast would result in an almost guaranteed kill making this spell somewhat similar to your Banish suggestions.

I'm not really sure what the damage should be. I try and base my proposed changes on precedence because that helps ensure the change is 1) balanced and 2) easily implementable. When it comes to reasonable damage for a direct damage spell... I don't really know. If anyone has any sage advice, I'm certainly receptive to it. Now, I guess 75% is a bit much when there is no damage cap so probably something like 25 - 50% would be better. I'm fine with the Disintegrate being an almost assured kill when twin-cast because just to qualify for the promotion you have to be a caster with Combat 5 (so +25% spell damage anyway) AND the hero promotion. Those units (Hemah, adventurers and so on) are suppose to be awesome and mighty. Besides, if the damage range is 25 - 50% than you are going to average 75% damage when twin casting... actually 94% because of the +25% spell damage from Combat 5. However, Hemah can already Dominate if he wants so having an optimally built super-caster foof your non-hero, non-resistant unit seems acceptable to me.

Also I can only agree that Metamagic should have an effect on summons.

If we are going to make Dimensional mana offer passive bonuses to summons than I disagree. Summons are already as good or better than direct damage spells so letting them benefit from both their own specialized sphere of magic AND another sphere of magic is too much. I think we should, from a design perspective, pretend there is still the division between summoning and sorcery and make sure mages specialized in either are balanced against each other. So let summoning have Dimensional and sorcery have Metamagic. Or let them both have both or neither. That way it's balanced.

 

[xienwolf]

Making a spell hit twice if the caster has Twincast is a piece of cake, since you are already in the Python to do the damage you just have to throw in an "If Twincast, do again" function right after the damage is dealt. So don't sweat that one

 

[Shatner]

I think the Force 2 spell bears a little discussion. The way I envision it's use is that it targets the closest stack of enemy units. If there is a tie for closest stack than it targets the largest, closest stack. If there is still a tie than make the tie breaker random. Then the spell is applied against each unit in the stack. Each unit that fails to resist the spell is pushed back one space. Here's the kicker: I think the spell should be fairly easy to resist. The reasoning being I want the focus of this spell to NOT be "pushing the enemy back a space so they can't reach me" but instead to be "break up the stack of doom so I can beat one or both stacks up more easily." If your desire is to delay a stack then cast Charm Person or Blinding Light. This offers a unique tactical application instead of making it a Sun 2 clone. So, if a stack of ten no-extra-spell-resistance units shows up, I want a normal no-reducing-spell-resistance caster to cause at least a third of the units to be pushed out the back. My questions to you all are:

1) Does that sound like a reasonable strategic application?
2) Does that sound like a reasonable tier 2 spell?
3) What is a reasonable success rate for this spell (how many of a stack of ten should be displaced on average) and what resistance percentage does that probably translate to?

 

[Grey Fox]

This is my take on Metamagic:
1) A buff to magic resistance, like 10 or 20%.
2) Ring of Warding improvement/building. Improvement in the field and building in cities. Should function the same way and give the stack some resistance to spells and have a chance to completely kill attacking summons.
3) A buff to magic attack power.

I haven't played 0.31 yet so I don't know what metamagic has atm, I think I remember reading something about a spell to make any mana into a raw node? That fits I guess.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, some (most) damage spells don't work through python. It should check in the SDK instead. Sorcery and summoning spells could both work just by triggering the spell over again.

I'd also like it if it were changed so that the number of spells was doubled for each promotion with <bTwincast>1</bTwincast>. Currently it will double the number of summons if the promotion has any promotion with this effect, but more than one such promotion has no added effect. (If it would double, I would probably make Dimensional 3 have this tag instead of granting a promotion that grants affinity.)

Edit: wait, maybe you meant to change def cast(argsList): at the top of CvSpellInterface.xml instead of each individual spell. Maybe that would work without SDK changes. I may try it.
Edit2: wait, why was I thinking that it would double the parts of the spell that are not handled in python? It would be easier than doing if for each spell effect separately though.

That doesn't help with letting extension 1 and 2 extend the range of other spells though.