Spell Ideas for the Unimplemented Spheres

[MagisterCultuum]

Does that seem much more like a Metamagic spell though?

Also, how would you stop the unit from having infinite casting ability (cast spell, cast powersink, cast some spell, cast powersink, cast some spell, cast powersink, ad infinitum)? You would really need to remove the promotion for this to be balanced.

 

[stp]

Alright, let's analyze the Ice spells, mainly because Create Ice Giant isn't terribly interesting and cuts in on the significance of the hero Wilbowman.

<Joke>The Tier 3 Ice spell could be Ice 9. When cast it causes all rivers to vanish and all water tiles to become ice tiles. Permanently.</Joke>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_9

I'm inclined to move Blizzard up to the Tier 3 slot simply because it is so similar to Maelstrom. When made into a tier 3 spell, I would increase it's area of effect by one tile (making it a 3 or 4 tile radius? I forget Maelstrom's range) as well as lowering it's damage cap. I think it shouldn't damage units with the racial promotion that the Illians or Doviello start with because it would be really hard to cast a spell with that large an effect without blasting your own units as well and, let's face it, the cold civs are going to be the ones casting this spell most of the time. The damage can stay the same as a tier 2 spell; with really large area of effect spells you're going to be spamming it while invading anyway so let's make multiple castings actually have a cumulative effect. I'm thinking a 40 - 50% damage cap. Is it possible to make ice traversable by land units (or at least units with the racial promotion the Illians and Doviello have)? If so it could be neat if the temporary terraforming this spell did included causing fresh water tiles to freeze over, allowing land units to cross. Complications arise if the ice melts while there are land units on top. They should probably be shunted off. I'm not sure I like the idea of this spell freezing ocean tiles over because that is 1) not how blizzards work and 2) giving this spell more utility than I think it should have. Does anyone know if it's hard from a coding perspective to make only freshwater tiles freeze over temporarily?

Basically moving Blizzard to Ice 3 has the effect of limiting it to a maximum of 8 casters per civ. Can an improvement (like the AoI Blizzard) be linked to a civ? In that case we could limit it to one per unit with Ice 3 and be done. A lot of its balancing issues came from the fact that you could create them limitless. If not make it stationary and affecting less tiles (1 or 4) . In that case we would create a spell that turns tiles into hostile threatening environment. In addition, if the Blizzards can't move the AI could not be crippled that badly. Casting it in another civ's territory would be considered an act of war and at war time the AI can understand that it has to stop your mages from moving in. So you would basically use it to create a wall around your territory that weakens invaders.

I don't know whether its difficult to allow Illians to move on Ice, but freezing fresh water would have little effect: Most bigger lakes are considered inland seas so we could just have the spell freeze costal tiles to have a strategic effect.

That freeze up (ha ha) the Ice 2 slot. Now, I think the game is lacking in direct damage spells overall but we're also really short on Tier 2 summons. Any thoughts? A summon could be the tundra-equivalent to the Sand Lion: powerful for it's tier but only castable from cold terrain. That would further encourage use of the Frost spell. I'll have to think more on a direct damage spell; I'd like it to be in some way more than just damage dealing. Maybe it could confer some sort of debuff promotion (like "frostbite" which decreases cold resistance or defensive strength or something)...

Summon frostling archer, frostling wolf rider or Ice Golem? One of them could be used for Ice II.

An interesting and appropriate effect for an Ice spell could be a negative equivalent of the mobility promotion, limiting the victims movement rate. Perhaps it could be the second effect of your direct damage spell, or for units moving through a Blizzard. If the promotion negates the commando promotion it could be extremely powerful.

I have no idea for a passive Ice mana effect at the moment.

Civ-sphere synergies are interesting and I can imagine quite a few of them, but I meant an additional decision for players that I only expect to be used in some scenario: Aid the Illians for more powerful Ice magic or fight them to prevent another Ice Age. But that obviously isn't the appropriate thread for this.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, that is why it was stated that Powersink should be castable only once per turn (not sure precisely which mechanic could be used to safely ensure that, but probably a promotion with a 100% chance to wear off at the end of the turn "Exerted" or "Spent" and not allowing you to cast Powersink while you have that promotion)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Amatho who now? I'm not really up on most of the lore, was just trying to capture a spell that 'creates' something. Summon foe was more meant as a way to get XP than anything else, but with some small amount of risk.

Amathaon is the Angel/God of Creation, usually in the sense new birth (Sucellus would then the the god of these creations growing into maturity)(I had though Goddess, but Kael used a masculine pronoun recently. Female does seem like it would make more sense for a fertility dety though, doesn't it?). He is the Patron of the Kuriotates. He created both the most powerful being every created (excluding the Angels made by the One), Eurabatres the Golden Dragon, as well as more gentle creatures like Butterflies.

Creation I: Create Verdant Grove
Creates a Grove building in the city it is cast in, removed if the caster leaves. Verdant grove provides +1 (+2?) Health and stores 15% of food on city size increase.

Creation II: Summon Sprite

Creates a Strength 3 Sprite for 1 turn. This sprite can engage in combat as normal, but can also perform normal worker actions. (Summoner trait would make this a great perfectionism spell). Maybe a golem of some type?

Creation III: Hypergenesis.

Founds a town (doesn't destroy caster like settling does), complete with a HyperGenesis building (Provides +2 or +3 food). Is it possible to make the town start at a greater than default size? (AKA, 2 or 3?) This would be instead of the hypergenesis building in the town. Given this is an archmage calibre spell, and the lack of land likely to be at this stage, it could be 'too weak'. Then again, if you want to, you could literally sow an empire with it, in which cases it'd be too strong.

These ideas are much better than the first version.

I'm thinking "sprites" should be weaker (0 str, +1 creation mana affinity maybe?) but be permanent summons with a high work rate, similar to mud golems. I don't like the idea of letting only summoning trait civs use their worker abilities.

I believe that you mean founds a city. Yes, this is quite possible. It might even be possible to make it found cities in places you normally couldn't, ignoring the distance requirement or even in rival territory, on peaks, or on water if you wanted to. Setting the population harder is not hard at all.

Alright, now Ice. I'm thinking of giving these some interesting strategic effects. I like a basic frost spell that turns plains to tundra, so I'll work from there.

Frost: Turns 0 range plains into tundra.

Ice II: Encase

Castable only in a tundra square. All of your units in this square gain the Ice Shield promotion that gives +25% tundra and ice defence, and -35% collateral damage. Promotion is removed when the unit ends a turn in a non tundra or ice square.

Ice III: Blizzard

Deals damage to enemy units 1 square away. Damage is based on the number of units in this square with the Ice Shield promotion (See above).

Not sure if this is truly effective, but the idea would be that given plenty of time, an Ice mage could lay a very strong siege.

I think almost all of us agree that level 1 should be frost. I think that Snow (called ice in the mouseover, but not the same as the water feature) might be better than tundra though. Making it temporary (through the thaw mechanic) would probably be best. It might be of to make it extend to nearby tiles (maybe only with spell extension) and to let it create temporary ice on nearby water tiles.

Not really sure I like Encase. Honestly, it sounds much more fitting for a level 1 spell, given the terrain restrictions, but I still prefer Frost for that.

I really think that Ice needs a summon. I'd prefer summon Frost Giant (although I guess that Ice Golem could be ok) be the level 2 spell. These should be strong for the level and/or have ice affinity, but be only summonable on ice(snow) or tundra and unable to enter any other terrain (they melt quickly. Wilboman would have melted already if he weren't always accompanied by ice mages keeping him cool)


I still like Blizzard for Ice III. I would be Ok with Kael adopting the AoI version, but I believe that the AoI way is largely hardcoded, and it would be difficult to determine how they should move on a random map. I think I would prefer a ranged direct (cold) damage spell that also causes Frost on nearby tiles.

I'm thinking that a "Frostbitten" promotion might be nice, which slows (even immobilizes?) units and gives them negative healing. I'm thinking it might be good for Blizzard to give this to units without enough cold resistance, and/or to randomly apply it to units on snow/tundra tiles without enough resistance.

Force:

Force I: Force Spike

Deal 5% of total damage to a single unit one square a way (If multiple, chosen at random).

Force II: Power Sink
Only castable once per turn.

The caster may cast an additional time this turn.

Force III: Repel

Non fortified enemy units up to 1 square away are moved away from the caster 1 or 2 squares.

Although most people seem to like it, I'm not sure I like a direct damage spell for force. It isn't horrible though.

Power Sink is way overpowered. I'm not sure how you would stop the caster from having an infinite number of spells each turn (cast spell, powersink, spell, powersink, spell, powersink...ad infinitum). You could make remove it upon casting, but that would make it hard o get to level 3. You could also make it give another promotion that is removed, but that seems just like Spellstaff.

Currently your "Repel" spell is essentially the same as Whirlwind, the old Air II spell, which Kael has planned for Force II. I personally think it is better as a level 2 spell, but wasn't really impressed with it when it was in.

Meh, not sure about force, it's a weird one. What kind of faction would likely have it?

Force is the representative sphere of the Grigori. It represents Balance, and maybe also the physics of the real world as opposed to arcane or divine might.


I'm thinking still thinking that it should have more "Balance" themed spells. Level 1 could give a promotion giving resistance to both Holy and Unholy damageto units in the stack, to help in wars against either extremist religion. I still think it would be cool for level 3 to give the caster a promotion that bypasses combat odds altogether, giving it a 50-50 shot whether facing the Avatar of Wrath or an umpromoted goblin. This would probably wither wear off quickly or be removed by combat.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I'm thinking "sprites" should be weaker (0 str, +1 creation mana affinity maybe?) but be permanent summons with a high work rate, similar to mud golems. I don't like the idea of letting only summoning trait civs use their worker abilities.

Non summoners would be able to use them, just not nearly as well. Remember, a worker's effect on working triggers at the moment you click the button, not at the start of the next turn.

Though it WOULD be annoying to micro-manage. (Though that's rather a theme in this game hehe).

So if force is somewhat representative of balance... Hmm.

Force I: Throw

All friendly units in this stack suffer ~5% damage, but gain Flying until end of turn. (Flying gives +1 move,and flat movement costs right? If not, that's what I'm looking for). Damage is meant to be a micro balance towards haste.

Force II: Empower

Adds the Empower promotion to all living units in the stack, with a rank equal to the number of Force mana sources you have.

Force III: Topple

Mountains in adjacent tiles turn to hills. For each mountain changed like this, create a ( boulder unit) that lasts for (turns) and deals collateral damage. (Dies on attack? Can 'hurry' production, to give you a use for them near your cities?).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Not a fan. Level 1 would be a much more powerful spell than level 2 (or even 3), since the flying promotion also lets you move across all terrain, including water. Imagine all the Hippus cavalry flying from continent to continent. Of course, it would have to be some other promotion if you want it to expire and you could make it give +1 movement and flat movement without letting it move on all terrain, but I'm still not a fan.

Empower isn't good. All the promotions are equal, giving only +10 combat strength. Also, what would this do after 6 mana? This is also isn't good for civs that use a lot of summons or for Barnaxus-boosted golems.

I'm pretty sure that Kael doesn't want such terraforming because the AI couldn't handle it. This seems more like an earth spell anyway.


Frankly I don't see how these are particularly balance or equilibrium oriented.

 

[Shatner]

I think Dimensional should have an unsummon spell. Or it could create a Ring of Warding.

While I was designing my general and specialized versions of the Dimensional sphere I had a similar idea. However, an Unsummon spell would have to be 2nd level at most because it, like Destroy Undead, has such a narrow application. How often do you encounter summons from the AI (Treants spawned by worldspells and Ancient Forests not withstanding)? That's why I opted for a building spell (Dimensional Gate for the general version) or a buff spell (Phasing for the specialized version). I could see Unsummon be the Dimension 2 spell for the specialized version of the sphere but I think that would weaken the sphere further. To compensate we'd either have to ratchet up the passive benefits (increased summon duration AND heroic attack/defense promotions) or make the other spells better (Escape and Dimensional Summon). I like Unsummon for it being thematic and simple but I'd need the aforementioned balance issues addressed before I'd advocate it further.

Creation II: Summon Sprite

Creates a Strength 3 Sprite for 1 turn. This sprite can engage in combat as normal, but can also perform normal worker actions.

I'm thinking "sprites" should be weaker (0 str, +1 creation mana affinity maybe?) but be permanent summons with a high work rate, similar to mud golems.

In previous threads I had considered spells which created worker units. Having given the matter further thought I think the concept of the "worker-summons" is flawed... to a point.

The concept of a summoned super-worker is boring in that it brings nothing special or new to the game. By the time we have reached the Sorcery technology necessary to unlock a Tier 2 spell, we should have no problem expanding our workforce. Heck, I often times find myself disbanding workers mid-game because the early work (chopping down trees, clearing jungle, mining, farming, cottaging and building roads) has already been done and the late work (windmills, lumbermills, improving around new cities) can already be handled by a core of 4 to 6 workers. That plus conquering other civs leaves you with so many workers it makes me wish they became slaves so I could sacrifice them instead of just disbanding them on the spot. Generally speaking, a civ would be better off investing in an extra worker or two rather than investing in worker-summoning magic.

Now, having summons which have worker abilities as a side benefit are fine. I kind of miss having dwarven units which could build mines. Allowing a Fire Elemental to destroy forests/jungles or Hosts of the Einherjar to build roads in addition to being a tough tier 3 summon is fine and flavorful. Conversely, if the summon lets you do something you couldn't otherwise do (like have Earth Elementals build mines in peaks) then suddenly you have a valuable idea. But let's not make a spell which is effectively Summon Mud Golem...


--- MC

I really think that Ice needs a summon. I'd prefer summon Frost Giant (although I guess that Ice Golem could be ok) be the level 2 spell. These should be strong for the level and/or have ice affinity, but be only summonable on ice(snow) or tundra and unable to enter any other terrain (they melt quickly. Wilboman would have melted already if he weren't always accompanied by ice mages keeping him cool).

--- Me

Now, I think the game is lacking in direct damage spells overall but we're also really short on Tier 2 summons. Any thoughts? A summon could be the tundra-equivalent to the Sand Lion: powerful for it's tier but only castable from cold terrain. That would further encourage use of the Frost spell.

--- Compare

I still like Blizzard for Ice III. I would be Ok with Kael adopting the AoI version, but I believe that the AoI way is largely hardcoded, and it would be difficult to determine how they should move on a random map. I think I would prefer a ranged direct (cold) damage spell that also causes Frost on nearby tiles.

--- Contrast

I'm inclined to move Blizzard up to the Tier 3 slot. I think it shouldn't damage units with the racial promotion that the Illians or Doviello start with because...

...If so it could be neat if the temporary terraforming this spell did included...

--- Take 1

I'm thinking that a "Frostbitten" promotion might be nice, which slows (even immobilizes?) units and gives them negative healing. I'm thinking it might be good for Blizzard to give this to units without enough cold resistance, and/or to randomly apply it to units on snow/tundra tiles without enough resistance.

--- Take 2

I'll have to think more on a direct damage spell; I'd like it to be in some way more than just damage dealing. Maybe it could confer some sort of debuff promotion (like "frostbite" which decreases cold resistance or defensive strength or something)...

I need to try out your modmod because you and I seem to have similar ideas on what to do. If i decide to make a modmod of my own I'll be sure to ask you for pointers.

Basically moving Blizzard to Ice 3 has the effect of limiting it to a maximum of 8 casters per civ. Can an improvement (like the AoI Blizzard) be linked to a civ? In that case we could limit it to one per unit with Ice 3 and be done. A lot of its balancing issues came from the fact that you could create them limitless. If not make it stationary and affecting less tiles (1 or 4) . In that case we would create a spell that turns tiles into hostile threatening environment. In addition, if the Blizzards can't move the AI could not be crippled that badly. Casting it in another civ's territory would be considered an act of war and at war time the AI can understand that it has to stop your mages from moving in. So you would basically use it to create a wall around your territory that weakens invaders.

I still have my reservations about your proposed blizzards. Let me enumerate my concerns so that you and I can address them; a really good idea is in here, I'm convinced of that.

1) The AI can't adequately terraform it's domain so permanent, sweeping terraforming effects (like the AoI blizzards) would be very damaging to the AI.
I'd prefer it if the spell's terraforming was only temporary that way the AI wouldn't be so screwed over. You, the Illians, invade and the blizzards roll in, turning the land white. If you are repelled the land thaws in twenty or so turns. If you succeed then you send in the adepts to cast Frost over the landscape to make the cold settle in permanently.

2) The AI can't adequately handle foes or effects that can't be "killed" through combat.
Sure, a human will learn to Scorch the incoming blizzards but the AI would have a hard time reacting to that even if it did know how (i.e. wouldn't scramble to get a Sun 1 trained adept on anti-blizzard duty). The same human player knows they can use Life 1 trained adepts to keep out Hell Terrain AND know they will ultimately need to beat up the AV worshipers if they ever want to end the sanctify-casting-picket-line. The same holds true for dealing with the Illians and their encroaching winter terrain. The AI would not handle this appropriately without major improvements.

3) The AI doesn't handle terrain-based damage (aka attrition effects) well. This is why the changed the passive effect of Entropy mana.
The AI has a tendency to stop and heal when their units get too weak, which is a real bad idea if the terrain they're stopping to heal in is causing the weakening. Plus I'm not convinced the AI would know to circumvent the stationary blizzards even if the terrain permitted it.

If you really have your heart set on summoning a blizzard unit fine. I actually like that better than my really-cold-Maelstrom-knock off. But make sure it isn't going to disproportionately harm the AI. My suggestion is to make the spell create a unit which is either permanent and not under your control or lasts several turns and is controllable. If uncontrolled, the unit should exit your borders and not return (like the animal AI) then wander around more or less at random from there. The unit should be unable to attack, should not heal and have a relatively low defense score for a tier 3 summon (like 5 + ice affinity). It should inflict ice damage to all adjacent units like Crown of Brilliance and cause all land within a 1 or 2 tile radius to temporarily become tundra and snow (like the End of Winter option). If it moves uncontrollably you can set the AI that moves it to mostly move horizontally to give it a similar feel to the AoI blizzards.

Summon frostling archer, frostling wolf rider or Ice Golem? One of them could be used for Ice II.

An interesting and appropriate effect for an Ice spell could be a negative equivalent of the mobility promotion, limiting the victims movement rate. Perhaps it could be the second effect of your direct damage spell, or for units moving through a Blizzard. If the promotion negates the commando promotion it could be extremely powerful.

Ice Golem/Ice Giant summons keep getting mentioned. I like the concept. Aside from being the cold equivalent to Sand Lions (summonable only in cold terrain, extra tough for it's tier), what if they inflicted a minor amount of collateral, cold damage (2 units tops). Then we can go two directions with this. One is to make all cold damage have a chance of conferring the Frostbitten promotion to harmed units unless the units have a non-negative amount of cold resistance (like the old Poisoned promotion). The other is to make only the Ice Golem/Ice Giant inflict the promotion. I prefer the former but I suspect the poisoned mechanic was removed for a reason (why was that, anyway?). Regardless, Frostbitten should increase movement costs like the Heavy promotion or negate all Mobility and Haste promotions. Maybe have it lower heal rates or give a modest strength penalty (-10%, perhaps) as well. Then give the promotion a 40 - 50% chance of vanishing each turn AND allow Scorch and Blaze to remove the promotion from all units in the stack. With the promotion spread by cold damage you could add a new tactical option for any units which have cold strength (an Illian catapult UU able to spread the Frostbitten promotion would make a very effective anti-calavary measure, for example).

 

[stp]

I still have my reservations about your proposed blizzards. Let me enumerate my concerns so that you and I can address them; a really good idea is in here, I'm convinced of that.

1) The AI can't adequately terraform it's domain so permanent, sweeping terraforming effects (like the AoI blizzards) would be very damaging to the AI.
I'd prefer it if the spell's terraforming was only temporary that way the AI wouldn't be so screwed over. You, the Illians, invade and the blizzards roll in, turning the land white. If you are repelled the land thaws in twenty or so turns. If you succeed then you send in the adepts to cast Frost over the landscape to make the cold settle in permanently.

AoI Blizzards did not terraform permanently (although the effect lasted for a fairly long time). As I said, we could make the Blizzard be stationary and the terraforming only lasting a few turns longer than the Blizzard. In addition the Blizzard itself should wear of in a couple of turns. That means you have to risk your mages to uphold the effect.

Basically I think we are planning the same effect for Ice 3, but explain it differently.

2) The AI can't adequately handle foes or effects that can't be "killed" through combat.
Sure, a human will learn to Scorch the incoming blizzards but the AI would have a hard time reacting to that even if it did know how (i.e. wouldn't scramble to get a Sun 1 trained adept on anti-blizzard duty). The same human player knows they can use Life 1 trained adepts to keep out Hell Terrain AND know they will ultimately need to beat up the AV worshipers if they ever want to end the sanctify-casting-picket-line. The same holds true for dealing with the Illians and their encroaching winter terrain. The AI would not handle this appropriately without major improvements.

Right, therefore the Blizzards should have some limited duration and not affect too many tiles. The AI understands that it has to kill mages, so it is risky to install the Blizzard in the first place. As an Ice 3 - spell Blizzard should perhaps not be removed by level 1 spells.

Also, I still hope for some major AI improvements.

3) The AI doesn't handle terrain-based damage (aka attrition effects) well. This is why the changed the passive effect of Entropy mana.
The AI has a tendency to stop and heal when their units get too weak, which is a real bad idea if the terrain they're stopping to heal in is causing the weakening. Plus I'm not convinced the AI would know to circumvent the stationary blizzards even if the terrain permitted it.

If you really have your heart set on summoning a blizzard unit fine. I actually like that better than my really-cold-Maelstrom-knock off. But make sure it isn't going to disproportionately harm the AI. My suggestion is to make the spell create a unit which is either permanent and not under your control or lasts several turns and is controllable. If uncontrolled, the unit should exit your borders and not return (like the animal AI) then wander around more or less at random from there. The unit should be unable to attack, should not heal and have a relatively low defense score for a tier 3 summon (like 5 + ice affinity). It should inflict ice damage to all adjacent units like Crown of Brilliance and cause all land within a 1 or 2 tile radius to temporarily become tundra and snow (like the End of Winter option). If it moves uncontrollably you can set the AI that moves it to mostly move horizontally to give it a similar feel to the AoI blizzards.

Making it a unit could work, would it be possible to allow AI units to kill it but force players to dispel it?

Ice Golem/Ice Giant summons keep getting mentioned. I like the concept. Aside from being the cold equivalent to Sand Lions (summonable only in cold terrain, extra tough for it's tier), what if they inflicted a minor amount of collateral, cold damage (2 units tops). Then we can go two directions with this. One is to make all cold damage have a chance of conferring the Frostbitten promotion to harmed units unless the units have a non-negative amount of cold resistance (like the old Poisoned promotion). The other is to make only the Ice Golem/Ice Giant inflict the promotion. I prefer the former but I suspect the poisoned mechanic was removed for a reason (why was that, anyway?). Regardless, Frostbitten should increase movement costs like the Heavy promotion or negate all Mobility and Haste promotions. Maybe have it lower heal rates or give a modest strength penalty (-10%, perhaps) as well. Then give the promotion a 40 - 50% chance of vanishing each turn AND allow Scorch and Blaze to remove the promotion from all units in the stack. With the promotion spread by cold damage you could add a new tactical option for any units which have cold strength (an Illian catapult UU able to spread the Frostbitten promotion would make a very effective anti-calavary measure, for example).

Your description, of the Frostbitten promotion is exactly what I had in mind originally. Higher movement cost is perfect for it. However, I'm not sure about allowing Scorch and Blaze to remove the promotion. Could be an appropriate game play mechanic, but this sounds like using a flamethrower to cure a cold. Perhaps Cure Disease and Heal would be more appropriate.

Hm, another idea comes to my mind, perhaps Blizzard should not even damage units. It could create an enormous area (5x5) of temporary cold terrain (should it destroy improvements?), so that your army (assuming you're Illian) can invade using the advantages of Winterborn while enemies get Frostbitten when engaging your armies. In addition, your mages could use the temporary terrain to move in Ice summons. Perhaps we could have the Archmage casting it, stay in the middle and cause damage like Crown of Brilliance to enemy units that move on adjacent tiles. Perhaps we should make not only Winterborn but also units with Ice or Fire sphere promotions immune to getting Frostbitten by Blizzards. That way Ice mages from other civs and Amurite units with Fire 1 would be immune. Makes sense that the Amurites are best suited to fight the Illians.

 

[jimi12]

i like the idea for blizzard but i dont think that Fire 1 should grant immunity to it. in AoI Epona could still be harmed by blizzards even if she had the ability to cast fireballs so that wouldnt make sense to implement it now. I saw just limit immunity to Winterborn units.

 

[stp]

Fine, but I still think that Ice sphere promotions should grant immunity to Frostbitten that is given by Blizzards. Otherwise, non-Illian Mages could never use this sphere or they would hurt themselves. The Illians should be able to use the spell to buff their entire army, but others should only use it for Ice summons. I imagine Blizzards as the Illian way of waging war, still useful to others, but not equally powerful. In addition, Frostbitten should give -10& combat strength to make the effect more interesting.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It would be easy to make each ice promotion grant a little cold resistance. I would say that Frostbitten should be passed on whenever cold damage is dealt just like poisoned is passed on by poison damage (not hat I know how or if that is working), but it doesn't exactly make sense to get frostbite from the cold damage from the Tsunami spell, does it?


It wouldn't be hard to make Scorch, Blaze, Fireball, and Summon Fire Elemental all remove Frostbitten from units in the stack. That makes more sense than making Fire or Sun promotions give immunity I think.

I was thinking that the promotion should wear off if the unit is on a warmer climate tile. That would probably require using a pyPerTurn function. You could also remove it from units with ice, sun, or fire promotions if you want, but it isn't really necessary. If you warm up the tile with scorch or blaze, then the promotion would wear off anyway. While there, you might as well have it randomly immobilize or damage the unit slightly.

 

[xienwolf]

Could change the name to Hypothermia, then it makes sense from Tsunami as well.

I'd say it probably would be best done like the Nebula and Supernova features in Final Frontier. A terrain feature which deals damage to anyone in range of it. Then make a certain minimum Cold resistance grant immunity to that damage.

 

[Shatner]

Let's see what I've missed after few days away...

AoI Blizzards did not terraform permanently (although the effect lasted for a fairly long time). As I said, we could make the Blizzard be stationary and the terraforming only lasting a few turns longer than the Blizzard. In addition the Blizzard itself should wear of in a couple of turns. That means you have to risk your mages to uphold the effect.

... the Blizzards should have some limited duration and not affect too many tiles. The AI understands that it has to kill mages, so it is risky to install the Blizzard in the first place.

I'd say it probably would be best done like the Nebula and Supernova features in Final Frontier. A terrain feature which deals damage to anyone in range of it. Then make a certain minimum Cold resistance grant immunity to that damage.

I don't see a stationary blizzard as being particularly desirable or thematic. Stationary summons/effects are tools for the besieged. You build/summon your Maginot Line and hope the enemy will come charging through it. However, this requires your enemy to either be 1) too stupid to go around it or 2) have no alternative route. The latter is unlikely and the former punishes the AI. The entire concept of static defenses doesn't work especially well for FfH which is why archers are so derided. You have to have your defenses move out to meet the enemy, otherwise they'll just hit a different, softer flank (pillaging tiles, capturing under-defended core cities, etc). Also, for a tier 3 spell to be worth while AND be stationary it would have to be ridiculously powerful to make up for the massive opportunity cost of learning Ice-3 AND hoping the enemy will charge your location. Requiring your archmage to stay in the area to keep the spell going strikes me as another problem rather than a design-fix. Perhaps I am not understanding your post correctly.

Also, I still hope for some major AI improvements.

As do we all. However, I think it would be more constructive if our spell implementations relied on as few additional changes as possible. You improve the game you have, not the game you wish you had.

As an Ice 3 - spell Blizzard should perhaps not be removed by level 1 spells.
...
Making it a unit could work, would it be possible to allow AI units to kill it but force players to dispel it?

I'm quite certain that Blizzard needs to summon a unit that causes blizzardy effects. Anything else is too ambitious, especially regarding the AI's ability to handle it. With it being a unit, the Fire and Sun sphere should have no special effect on it.

Your description, of the Frostbitten promotion is exactly what I had in mind originally. Higher movement cost is perfect for it. However, I'm not sure about allowing Scorch and Blaze to remove the promotion. Could be an appropriate game play mechanic, but this sounds like using a flamethrower to cure a cold. Perhaps Cure Disease and Heal would be more appropriate.

I don't really have a strong feeling on how the Frostbitten promotion should be removable. Since it'll be a temporary promotion to start with, we could not include any way to remove the de-buff early; you just have to wait for it to remove itself.

Hm, another idea comes to my mind, perhaps Blizzard should not even damage units. It could create an enormous area (5x5) of temporary cold terrain (should it destroy improvements?), so that your army (assuming you're Illian) can invade using the advantages of Winterborn while enemies get Frostbitten when engaging your armies. In addition, your mages could use the temporary terrain to move in Ice summons. Perhaps we could have the Archmage casting it, stay in the middle and cause damage like Crown of Brilliance to enemy units that move on adjacent tiles. Perhaps we should make not only Winterborn but also units with Ice or Fire sphere promotions immune to getting Frostbitten by Blizzards. That way Ice mages from other civs and Amurite units with Fire 1 would be immune. Makes sense that the Amurites are best suited to fight the Illians.

Fine, but I still think that Ice sphere promotions should grant immunity to Frostbitten that is given by Blizzards. Otherwise, non-Illian Mages could never use this sphere or they would hurt themselves. The Illians should be able to use the spell to buff their entire army, but others should only use it for Ice summons. I imagine Blizzards as the Illian way of waging war, still useful to others, but not equally powerful. In addition, Frostbitten should give -10& combat strength to make the effect more interesting.

Having the "blizzard" actually be a constant area of effect spell centered on the archmage, like Crown of Brilliance, which does blizzardy things (temporary terraforming, ice damage, and/or inflict the Frostbitten debuff) is fine though we would have to make one or two design changes to accommodate this. 1st, it would have to have a definite duration or an "on/off" switch because no one save the Illians would want one of their archmages to be permanently terraforming their terrain. In other words, you don't want to have to exile your blizzard-mage to Siberia for fear that he'll ruin your farmlands by bringing Siberia home with him.

Also it would have to NOT harm friendly units. If it did than it would require all non-immune units to march far, far away from the archmage which is just a bad idea. While a discriminate blizzard seems strange, let's just pretend the archmage standing at the center of the blizzard is preventing the extreme cold from hitting allies. Or something. Really, allied units are going to need to be immune to the blizzard no matter how we implement the spell (archmage promotion or summon) otherwise the spell would only really be useful for the Illians, who we all want immune to it's effects. As STP said, this spell needs to be useful for non-Illians as well.


Lastly, I'm dredging up this post so we can talk about something other than the Ice-3 spell. Any thoughts on Force 2 or Ice 2?

I think the Force 2 spell bears a little discussion. The way I envision it's use is that it targets the closest stack of enemy units. If there is a tie for closest stack than it targets the largest, closest stack. If there is still a tie than make the tie breaker random. Then the spell is applied against each unit in the stack. Each unit that fails to resist the spell is pushed back one space. Here's the kicker: I think the spell should be fairly easy to resist. The reasoning being I want the focus of this spell to NOT be "pushing the enemy back a space so they can't reach me" but instead to be "break up the stack of doom so I can beat one or both stacks up more easily." If your desire is to delay a stack then cast Charm Person or Blinding Light. This offers a unique tactical application instead of making it a Sun 2 clone. So, if a stack of ten no-extra-spell-resistance units shows up, I want a normal no-reducing-spell-resistance caster to cause at least a third of the units to be pushed out the back. My questions to you all are:

1) Does that sound like a reasonable strategic application?
2) Does that sound like a reasonable tier 2 spell?
3) What is a reasonable success rate for this spell (how many of a stack of ten should be displaced on average) and what resistance percentage does that probably translate to?

 

[stp]

I don't see a stationary blizzard as being particularly desirable or thematic. Stationary summons/effects are tools for the besieged. You build/summon your Maginot Line and hope the enemy will come charging through it. However, this requires your enemy to either be 1) too stupid to go around it or 2) have no alternative route. The latter is unlikely and the former punishes the AI. The entire concept of static defenses doesn't work especially well for FfH which is why archers are so derided. You have to have your defenses move out to meet the enemy, otherwise they'll just hit a different, softer flank (pillaging tiles, capturing under-defended core cities, etc). Also, for a tier 3 spell to be worth while AND be stationary it would have to be ridiculously powerful to make up for the massive opportunity cost of learning Ice-3 AND hoping the enemy will charge your location. Requiring your archmage to stay in the area to keep the spell going strikes me as another problem rather than a design-fix. Perhaps I am not understanding your post correctly.

I was mixing some concepts here, we had considered adding Blizzards as level 2 or 3 spell. For precision I will concentrate on the level 3 Blizzard from now on.

As do we all. However, I think it would be more constructive if our spell implementations relied on as few additional changes as possible. You improve the game you have, not the game you wish you had.

Agreed, but I simply had in mind that there are a lot of concepts in FFH that the AI does not understand very well at this point (Kuriotate city placement for example).
However, it is a good idea to try to avoid introducing more AI problems.

I don't really have a strong feeling on how the Frostbitten promotion should be removable. Since it'll be a temporary promotion to start with, we could not include any way to remove the de-buff early; you just have to wait for it to remove itself.

I think it should wear off within a few turns in warm terrain. However at least heal should remove it instantly.

Having the "blizzard" actually be a constant area of effect spell centered on the archmage, like Crown of Brilliance, which does blizzardy things (temporary terraforming, ice damage, and/or inflict the Frostbitten debuff) is fine though we would have to make one or two design changes to accommodate this. 1st, it would have to have a definite duration or an "on/off" switch because no one save the Illians would want one of their archmages to be permanently terraforming their terrain. In other words, you don't want to have to exile your blizzard-mage to Siberia for fear that he'll ruin your farmlands by bringing Siberia home with him.

Also it would have to NOT harm friendly units. If it did than it would require all non-immune units to march far, far away from the archmage which is just a bad idea. While a discriminate blizzard seems strange, let's just pretend the archmage standing at the center of the blizzard is preventing the extreme cold from hitting allies. Or something. Really, allied units are going to need to be immune to the blizzard no matter how we implement the spell (archmage promotion or summon) otherwise the spell would only really be useful for the Illians, who we all want immune to it's effects. As STP said, this spell needs to be useful for non-Illians as well.

A second spell to stop the archmage from causing the blizzard is definitely required.
Blizzard should be tied closely to the whole Ice sphere. I would make it give the Frostbitten promotion to all units except those with Winterborn or Ice 1 to 3. The Illians would be able to use their whole army inside the Blizzard. All other civs would use Ice mages and the Ice 2 summon, we should design here. Following your suggestion this Ice 2 summon should be summonable only on cold terrain and be very hefty while fighting there. It should last at least two turns so that it can be used to defend your stack of mages.

About Force 2:
How about making it scatter the enemy on several tiles. Not only creating two stacks (units pushed and units resisting) but up to six. A little ilustration:

c...caster
t...target
p...tiles for pushed units
x...uninteresting tiles
x x p p
x c t p
x x p p