*Spoiler2* Gotm20-Spain - Full Map+Mag+Grav

[tao]

Originally posted by TC3
What do you experts do when a scientific civ gets the lead and starts to pull away like that?

Open Class 1.29

I went the money way. Going on borderline military, I built markets and raked in as much cash as possible. Then I looked for opportunities of trading techs between civs, which worked reasonably well. With navigation, I built missionaries and triggered my Golden Age. This I used for even more infrastructure (libraries, universities, banks, and a manually (pre-)built Smith's. This I did to prepare in hope of getting steam first, as I usually do on emperor. The outcome this time will be reported in the next spoiler .....

After having lost several galleys, I made a final attempt with a stack of 3 galleys, and one of them survived. Regrettably, the Ottomans discovered magnetism at the same time and thus I had to make the deals immediately and could not rake in huge profits. But I got hold of 3 more luxuries adding up to full eight and getting a great economic boost.

Edit: Having looked at the game again: Ottomans discovered navigation. (Both mag and nav allow trade over ocean.)

 

[TriviAl]

Originally posted by tao

After having lost several galleys, I made a final attempt with a stack of 3 galleys, and one of them survived. Regrettably, the Ottomans discovered magnetism at the same time and thus I had to make the deals immediately and could not rake in huge profits. But I got hold of 3 more luxuries adding up to full eight and getting a great economic boost.

Havn't had a lot of experience with naval stuff, but I thought they couldn't cross ocean squares safely until navigation. I traded contacts the turn that was discovered and no-one had met by then... was pretty soon after the discovery of magnetism, so I could have been lucky!

 

[ltccone]

Originally posted by TC3
I just retired rather than watch my empire beaten down.

I know exactly how you feel. Losing by getting wiped out is the worst way to lose. And that would never happen in a regular SP game because you would quit first.

The first game of the month I played was the Celts. I went the wrong direction and didn't get iron until late. I was way behind in tech because of a death struggle with Rome. I wiped out the Romans but the French marched across several other empires just to kick my butt. After losing a couple of key cities to the French I quit in disgust and therefore couldn't submit. I should have just swallowed my pride and fought to the bitter end.

 

[feght]

CONQUEST - Mac 1.29b2

Since I'm lazy, I didn't post in the first spoiler thread, and didn't keep a timeline after reaching the new world.
I went for the cash as well. I entered the middle ages in second place thanks to the great start and extra bonuses ... and with miraculous luck had my third suicide galley reach the new world in 530BC. Since I got there so early, I was able to keep the worlds separate for a long time, and I made a little money from that. When the time came, and the French and the Ottomans were on the verge of Magnetism, I sold everything off and ended up with tech parity and about a ten turn lead on economics, which enabled me to build Smiths Trading... yay!

Ottomans were always the threat. They were in first place through the ancient age, and in the late middle ages they declared war on me while I was still paying them Furs and 19gpt... I was a little confused about this until I realised that something they had done early on in the war had broken one of my trade routes and damaged my rep. Anyway, I bribed everybody else (except the new world and the long dead Keltoi) and we gave them a bit of a slapping.
I'm not very fond of war, and I got out soon after my 20 turn deals were up, although on reflection maybe I should have pressed my advantage. I had other fish to fry...

...by the end of this spoiler period, the world was truly at war. More next time!

 

[Dislak]

thanks guys for making me see that I should keep going on with my game even though I seem to be doomed. I'll go finish it up this afternoon and watch my empire sink faster then the Spanish Armada. I'll probably spend the rest of the month preparing for a new GOTM. Hopefully it won't be Diety

 

[scubagtr]

Open Class

Well, I'm still going - not strong, but still alive. The French have been wiped out, the Ottomans have 4 cities scattered throughout the globe, and the Americans are down to 2 cities, so compared to them I'm dominating.

The Zulus are the strongest, however, all other Civs have declared war on them, except for me. I'm just bebopping by myself avoiding conflicts as I build my empire and peacefully expand into the spaces created by the AI civs razing each others cities.

I am up to 20+ cities, and am up to 5th in the score. I am also 5th in or so in the techs. I was able to catch up in tech somewhat by sending out suicide galleys and made it to America on my 2nd one and then traded contacts, techs etc. I was then able to gain 2 techs for each one I researched on my way to Mit. Trad, by trading my newly discovered tech with Iroquios and Aztecs for one of their techs, since we are even.

The main problem has been Zulu, India, Celts and England, all ahead in tech, but now that they are all at war with each other, my military is catching up, now that I can build Cavs just like them.

The problem with Diety, is I can barely tell a difference between this game and our last Regent, Monarch, and Emperor games. I seem to be in the same boat. Gaining more land, catching up on techs, but just enough behind to where I can't catch them and they will either win the vote (but probably not since they are all at war) or build a spaceship. However, it will be different if they build all their tanks and all roll in on me and completely destroy me. I have not lost by that way yet.

Either way, I love playing this game and building my empire on the toughest level and doing better then half the AI civs.

It will be very interesting to go back to another Regent level GOTM game and see how much better I will do, becasue my skill level could be increasing and proportionately getting negated by the increased skill level.

Anyway, I am still moving along with the fight in this game, but still unsure of what path to take to victory. I'm guessing, to keep grabbing land and building my pop just in case a vote comes along, and then my second option will be to fight the weak AIs, just to let them know who the boss is.

 

[ltcoljt]

I don't think Moonsinger has posted in this thread. This can only mean she won before the end of the middle ages.

 

[scubagtr]

I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

 

[tao]

Open Class 1.29

First post is here.

Spain ended the Middle Ages in 570AD. It was a slow gaining on our way to victory. The current state of the republic is as follows:

We are trailing the Ottomans, who were the absolute power civ (maybe it is 1.29 specific). We did not succeed with any 40 turn research and lost a number of suicide galleys. In 250AD, a stack of 3 sailed west and 1 reached America. The Ottomans just discovered navigation and we had to buy it at monopoly price in order to make luxury deals with the new continent for our techs before the Turks could make contact. From then on, we managed every 20 turns to just come up with a new tech to renew these deals.

Ottomans built Pyramids, Great Wall, Sistine, and Bach's in Sogut; they also have Hanging Gardens, Sun Tzu's, and Shakespeare's thus being the culture powerhouse of the world.

Zulus built Leonardo's, and we were able to build Smith's during our Golden Age in Toledo.

The bad thing is, that with Madrid being such a great 4 turn settler pump, I did not set up a second. Thus the Ottomans were able to build 2 cities in my core area. I hoped for flips, but given their culture, in vain.

When the Ottomans demolished England, we were able to capture a few of their cities. In 240AD we joined the Turk's war against France (they were destroyed them in 270AD), but we had too few troups to enter the war earlier. We still managed to capture Orleans with the important wines. Because of its closeness to Sogut it flipped some time, but the gracious Ottomans refused . It pays off to be nice buddies.

Apart from the Ottoman's free tech, we are on par, always buying techs. Since we want to do our own research in the Industrial Times, get ToE, tech lead, etc., we used our Golden Age to build libraries, universities and banks to prepare for the research frenzy on steam. Whether we succeeded is beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[BillChin]

Originally posted by Dislak
thanks guys for making me see that I should keep going on with my game even though I seem to be doomed. I'll go finish it up this afternoon and watch my empire sink faster then the Spanish Armada. I'll probably spend the rest of the month preparing for a new GOTM. Hopefully it won't be Diety

The start is a good one to practice on. For fun, I suggest playing several starts on this map to 1000 BC and see how many cities, units and improvements you can get. There are no barbs on Open or Conquest level, and the enemies are a good distance away, so you can concentrate purely on exploration and expansion. Practicing the early game may be the best way for novice players to improve their game. Try different starting build queues. Try building early cities very close together (one or two tiles apart).

You can also practice on random maps with barbs turned on, as most games will have some barbs, and again see how much you can build by 1000 BC.
+ Bill

 

[Zwingli]

Originally posted by Txurce
I have a question about moving the palace to Ulundi. While this will improve the productivity of whatever the Zulus left you, doesn't your homeland suffer a corresponding productivity loss? Presuming this is why I've never moved my palace far away - I always thought I'd be better off keeping the cities I developed productive. (This assumes that the palace and FP are reasonably situated in the homeland.)

My Forbidden Palace was built at the center of the original Spanish lands, while the Palace was ill placed at Madrid (close to the coastline). Moving the Palace did not decrease my gold income, although my total shield production probably dropped temporarilly. The nearby captured Colossus helped, and many of the captured Zulu cities had intact marketplaces, banks, and aquaducts. Of course, the Palace (built at the midpoint of the war) also greatly reduced the odds of culture flipping while I was capturing Zulu cities intact, and no flips occured during this particular war. (It would also help with any potential future campaign against India )

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by BillChin
The start is a good one to practice on. For fun, I suggest playing several starts on this map to 1000 BC and see how many cities, units and improvements you can get...

I want to second this excellent suggestion by Bill because this map is available to you in three almost identical flavors.

You can play the game initially in the Conquest Version as use that as a basis for comparison.

The Open Class version is identical to the Congquest version and still has sedentary barbarians. Once you have full knowledge of the map you should probably use the Open class game to play some tests because foreknowledge of the map plus the Coquest class bonuses would probably make this process very easy for you.

The predator class game has raging barbarians and now starting Wheel but other than that it will be a great comparison to show you how much more difficult it can be when you have open space to expand into but lots of barbarian risk and other priorities.

A little bit or thought and care and some minor note taking should let you really have alot of fun just playing and comparing these three different game files from the same start position.

------------------------------------------------

I will add that our preconceived perception and testing of the Conquest class game bonuses leads us to gues that we will see a significant number of the Conquest class players who still end up slightly behind the leading 40-50% of the open class players even though the conquest class players began the game with one extra town and worker plus other advantages.

The real reason for this is that it may take a game or two for players to fully focus on the key opening play issues such as worker tasking and stratgic city placement/expansion. Once we see players start to do this you end up with the pattern we are seeing across all the game results where more players are basically IN the game and capable of then making choices as to how the middle of the game will progress. Clearly these players are having more fun and being able to make more personal choices as to how they enjoy and gain entertainment value from their Civ3 experiences.

 

[RufRydyr]

Barely hanging on after a great QSC start. Got attacked early and noone would sign mil alliances with me. A suicide galley made it and I got caught up on techs for a little bit, but it didn't last long. I'm behind on cities, mil, techs, and everything else! Plus everyone is furious at me, so I can't pull out a diplo win. Think I'm going to lose this one.

 

[TC3]

Originally posted by cracker

The real reason for this is that it may take a game or two for players to fully focus on the key opening play issues such as worker tasking and stratgic city placement/expansion. Once we see players start to do this you end up with the pattern we are seeing across all the game results where more players are basically IN the game and capable of then making choices as to how the middle of the game will progress. Clearly these players are having more fun and being able to make more personal choices as to how they enjoy and gain entertainment value from their Civ3 experiences.

The one positive thing about my loss is that it gives me some free time to practice opening strategies. There are two things that stand out. First is that the despot rush strategy is very viable on this map. Second, and most interesting to me, is what the Zulu are able to do with what looks like an over-powered start. In the game I lost the Zulu's early attack against the Ottomans was turned away sharply, but in most of my quick 1000 BC replays the Zulu were able to beat them down significantly very early on.

If the Ottomans make it to the late middle ages with a decent number of cities and get one or both of the science wonders then it becomes really difficult to wipe them out. If you don't wipe them out then they are quite likely to run away with science and launch the space ship (or wipe everyone out with siphai). It will be interesting to compare the outcomes of the games where the Ottomans were strong versus the ones where the were neutralized early.

I also wonder how this map would've played with the scientific civ placed on the other continent. There wasn't a large amount to be gained in my game from my suicide galleys because I was actually ahead of everyone else on the other continent in tech and nobody over there had much money.

 

[Lux_willow]

Conquest 1,29f

Thanks craker for a blessed starting position. It is being a very enjoyable game... the desperation at time makes it even better.

Before I start rambling one question:

reloading after your finger slips and you accidentaly giving your most advanced tech to a civ you are ready to anihilate for free is it cheating?


Anyway...

Researched engineering, bought feudalism and Chivalry from the French... for several reasons France became my target for war.

Take grenoble (just North of Madrid)
France allies with Kelts and English.

Defensive war: destruction of English army at san sebastian with loss of only one knigh ambushed by longbowman when 'G'oing to san sebastian. Manage to turn the kelts on my side against the english. No more english troops show up. Give Iron for free to the Kelts

GL from defensive war in the walled cities of the south-> army of elite knights -> retake setubal, take Chartres and take control of horsies.

French don't have salpetter -> sue for peace in exchange for tech that I sell to other civs.

Take english city, Fur monopoly. Forced to pause due to lack of troops. Kelts are driving the english back destroing city after city.

Make truce with english in exchange for tech. Still too much behing France and India.
One galley sinks in the high seas a second galley is destroied by sea monsters, the thrid one finds America making contact with a passing by american Galley.

Mother of all trading rounds, I rise from backwards civ to 2nd in tech and with enougth money to turn research to 100% and still make money . Contact with the indians alone gives me 2 techs from the Iroquois. I'm 5 techs away from the end of middleages

Turn to Republic. Money is flowing in. I'm leaching everyone except the ottomans which declare war on me. I get both the Zullu and French against them. The missionaries burn the herectic ottoman tresspassers at the stake initiating a golden age of Spanish Inquisition.
A horde of spanish Medinfantry and catapults conquer the Ottoman heartland after the Zullus have kicked the living daylight out the Ottoman military. I take 4 cities the french 1 and the zulu 3 or 4, plus the ones they burned down. I get my first wonder
Davinci's workshop and start upgrading. A GL appears just in time to become Vice-king at Urdu...something and builds for himself a forbidden pallace.
second kelt war after they refuse to retreat from Andorra. In the ensuing war I take a nearby kelt city. The kelts pay tribute in exchange for peace... I must be carefull for war weariness.
The ottomans last citadel lost deep in... hey that used to be England!!! Is taken by the French. I just noticed that the English are on the ropes the Kelts are kicking them back to the ice age. They burn down London destroying the Oracle.
3nd kelt war after ... some pretext I forget this time I'm the one forced to ask for peace after being on the brick of taking Augus...something and it's viniards and salpetter mines. Happily I manage to retake the 2 cities (andorra la nueva and the city captured from the kelts in the 2nd kelt war) I lost before suing for peace, but my northern army is a shadow of it's former glory.
The building of infrastructures on my heratland caused a shortage of recruiting. I need some turns of peace before my armys are ready to fight again. The Galeass are used for the first time in the 3rd kelt war for shore bombardment, unfortunatly the kelts had already built too many musketman.

Democracy + golden age + finding the new world + fur monopoly + 3salppeter + 4 horses + 3 iron + 3 incense + 4 ivory = 100% tech research (new tech every 5/6 turns) + around 200gpt + all luxuries in all cities

An thus by the ended of medieval age, the once backwards spaniards are now recognized as an advanced civilization, behind in science only to the exotic indians, spanish culture is again on the rise, the military is strong (at least in the south) and everyone is happy and life is good... if only this could last.

Rankings: score: 1 -spain 2 - Iroquois 3 - India 4 - Japan 5 - France 6- Aztec 7- Zulu 8 - Kelts (strong military) 9 - America 10 - England. Ottomans are extinct.

Strange as it might seem the civs in the new world were more advanced than spain and Japan was behind only to India (with lots of cash to spare). The Iroquois mopped the floor with America driving and confining America to 2 cities in Hispaniola (thats the name first given to Cuba if I'm not mistaken) that they share with Japan. To slow down Iroquois expansion I gave away horses to the americans but to no avail.

 

[alamo]

Conquest

I'm still alive, thanks to MA's against the invading Zulu. Starting to falling seriously behind in tech - knights vs Cav. Zulu are busy fighting everyone else on the continent now (Brennus RIP, but 4 others still). Got all of them to sign MA's immediately - good rep good for something!

I was able to get the suicide galley across first, but the new contacts were not as lucrative as I hoped. Turned out my continent was the tech leader, and I had already garned most of the techs. Also, it sped up the tech race since the AI is happy to trade techs at a resonable rate - to each other!

Got a FP built in a desirable location, and have my corner of the continent secure, except for 1 tundra English town. Not sure if it will flip. I managed to grab a French town that the Zulus captured (with the force sent for me ). The Zulu also razed an English town in the NE, and I'm trying to get a settler into that void. Also trying to get a Conquistador in the field for a GA. A leader would be great, but do not expect much combat.

Survival, much less Victory is still not certain. I must keep my (relatively) good reputation and try to stay afloat in tech. I may have a chance at UN chairman, but I may have to build UN. My early culture lead has vanished with the earnest AI build capacity.

 

[ltccone]

Originally posted by Lux_willow
Hispaniola (thats the name first given to Cuba if I'm not mistaken) that they share with Japan.

Hispanola is a Caribbean island (E of Cuba) that contains the modern nations of Haiti and the Dominican Republic. The first Spanish colony in the "New World" was on Hispanola.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Before I start rambling one question:
reloading after your finger slips and you accidentaly giving your most advanced tech to a civ you are ready to anihilate for free is it cheating?

No, 'fat finger' syndrome mistakes are not something you PLANNED to do, so reloading for those errors is not cheating, as you never intended to give away your techs for free.

If you did something, but find out later that it wasn't a good move (like trading luxuries, then the next turn, the trade route gets cut by some 3rd party) would not be acceptable to reload for, as you INTENDED to make the trade, accepting the possibility of the trade routes being cut.

Most people shouldn't worry about the reload counter for 'fat finger' slip-ups. But if you make them way too frequently, you should just accept the consequences of some of the minor mistakes.

 

[alamo]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Most people shouldn't worry about the reload counter for 'fat finger' slip-ups. But if you make them way too frequently, you should just accept the consequences of some of the minor mistakes.

I would say reloading for user input error is generally verbotten. I made plenty of tactical mistakes, like group move w/5 fast units and 1 slow.

Unless you're in danger of a critical loss I would say live and learn.

If you're about to annhilate them, what difference does it make? You could give them replacable parts but not relevant unless they can build/upgrade.

 

[Lux_willow]

Thanks! I was worried because by giving away that one tech I lost tech lead and the next turn everyone had it! Even civs that could afford it before!