[R&F] Spying and diplomatic visibility

[beorn]

I am watching more closely this game. I have "limited"access to the Mongols, and when I mouse over my military units versus theirs, neither side is getting a bonus for better knowledge of the others' movements.

Then I complete a Listening Post mission -- and I still have "limited access" and still neither side is getting a bonus for better knowledge of the others' movements.

Am I missing something here?

 

[Kryxal]

The Listening Post mission is completed ... that is to say, over. Did you check the status DURING the mission?

 

[beorn]

Interesting, so you are implying that using the Listening Post mission only has an effect while your agent is on the mission. This makes logical sense, but I did not realize that the game works that way.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Interesting, so you are implying that using the Listening Post mission only has an effect while your agent is on the mission. This makes logical sense, but I did not realize that the game works that way.

It's quite counter-intuitive, as all other Spy actions take effect only at the end of the mission. Even "siphon funds" is evaluated for success only at the end. This mission is the exact opposite.

It's another one of those niggling inconsistencies that makes it difficult to just play the game without consulting the Civilopedia or online references. It would have been better for playability, in my opinion, to have stuck with their general system and make the mission length the amount of time required to set up the Listening Post. Then the post stays in place either permanently (consistent with a trading post) or for 30 turns (on standard speed, consistent with trade deals).

 

[Victoria]

Then the post stays in place either permanently

A permanent +3 combat against every civ? no thanks as they will all end up cancelling out
Sending a trade route gives visibility but your trade routes are cancelled during war
Reaching Printing will give you a visibility level so getting there before another civ will give you +3 until they reach it.... avoiding printing is asking for -3 vs you
A spy for a limited time is right to me. That it happens during is elegant but yes different. I must add that visibility was in place before +3 combat came along so it was not designed for this role.
Being friends helps... but then you are not at war.
Being France, you get 1 level fo visibility at the start.

But yes, check while performing a listening post

 

[Nefelia]

I first discovered this bonus when it showed up on my neighbours units. Given that the neighbour was Genghis Khan and that the bonus was at +12, I was rather close to panicking.

Do the +3 bonuses add up if you have more than one spy running the Listening Post mission?

 

[acluewithout]

Can I just say: how awesome is it that delaying printing can result in a negative combat modifier? Very, very cool.

 

[Victoria]

Do the +3 bonuses add up if you have more than one spy running the Listening Post mission?

This is a very good question, I was unsure how the Mongols could get to +12..... if this is possible France could get to +24 which is very scary.
One suspects that will be my test of the day if work does not get in the way.

Very, very cool.

Sometimes one is unsure of the sarcasm level involved. I'm OK with it but can understand others consider the two things completely unrelated, especially in the early days of printing.

 

[acluewithout]

No sarcasm. Really love the mechanic. Bletchley Park and all that.

 

[Victoria]

Do the +3 bonuses add up if you have more than one spy running the Listening Post mission?

Nope, tested and with 7 listening posts running against Pedro I only get +9 combat modifier.
Before war I add a trade route indicating +12 but as soon as I declare it goes back to +9.
Interestingly these visibility modifiers only affect major civ's, you get no bonus against a CS.

 

[Nefelia]

Nope, tested and with 7 listening posts running against Pedro I only get +9 combat modifier.
Before war I add a trade route indicating +12 but as soon as I declare it goes back to +9.
Interestingly these visibility modifiers only affect major civ's, you get no bonus against a CS.

Thanks for testing. I'd do so myself, but I only have one spy up on my current game.

How do you get the +9 modifier?

 

[Victoria]

How do you get the +9 modifier?

France +3
Printing +3
Spy +3

 

[Nefelia]

Interesting. I wasn't fully aware of the implications of France's diplomatic advantage before. I'll have to give it a try if I ever get tired of early-game Wonder-whoring with China.

 

[Victoria]

Interesting. I wasn't fully aware of the implications of France's diplomatic advantage before. I'll have to give it a try if I ever get tired of early-game Wonder-whoring with China.

Yeah, try middle game wonder whoring with France. Her spies are just so good.

 

[blackbutterfly]

I played a game vs. France and now as AI she is quite formidable.

France gets +3 combat out the gate. Free. (From Catherine's extra level of diplo. visibility). Establish a trading post and conduct a Listening Post mission and bump that to +9.

Also her Imperial Guarde gets +10 combat on her home continent. (In the game I played she also had +10 from Defender of the Faith).

I'm planning to play either as England or France in my next game but I am not looking forward to my entire screen being blocked up with gossip

 

[Turrdy]

Establish a trading post and conduct a Listening Post mission and bump that to +9

France doesn't get a DV level for having trading posts. Only Mongolia gets DV from that. (Trade routes give DV nevertheless, however not during war...)

Other than that, I now always send a spy on a listening post when going to war.

 

[blackbutterfly]

France doesn't get a DV level for having trading posts. Only Mongolia gets DV from that. (Trade routes give DV nevertheless, however not during war...)

Mongolia gets extra (double?) bonus from diplomatic visibility. So +6 from each level. Everybody gets a level of DV from trading posts. Only that you get it once the trade route has completed (which is pretty hard to do early game unless you're The Mongols who get it instantly).

 

[Turrdy]

Mongolia gets extra (double?) bonus from diplomatic visibility. So +6 from each level. Everybody gets a level of DV from trading posts. Only that you get it once the trade route has completed (which is pretty hard to do early game unless you're The Mongols who get it instantly).

I'm pretty sure DV from trading posts is unique to Mongolia. See the first look video they put on youtube (at around the 0:27 mark)

so sending a trade route and declaring war the next turn is a pretty efficient strategy...

 

[blackbutterfly]

I'm pretty sure DV from trading posts is unique to Mongolia.

Yup. You're right.
It's not what the docs say, but France did not get visibility from an established trading post. I know cos I just played a game as France and she gets a max. of +9 combat from DV.

Still even without the TP boost France is really strong now, especially if the map's continents are in your favour. (So your Guarde Imperiale get another +10 on top of that). I made a wall of fortified GI armies in Europe to take out St. Petersberg in the final battle on a ginormous TSL Earth map.

 

[TheFourthDoctor]

I have learned a LOT from this thread! Merci à toutes et à tous!