St Paul and Michael Cohen

Berzerker

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Have something in common... Michael's in trouble and he's speaking well of the FBI. Why? Because they got him in a pickle and he doesn't want to upset them. Paul was in a similar position almost 2,000 years ago. He was sitting in a Roman prison awaiting his fate and he penned a letter that many Christians have interpreted as God's endorsement of government, even evil governments.

13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment 3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation 4 because it is God’s servant for your well-being. But be afraid if you do wrong because government does not bear the sword for nothing. It is God’s servant to administer punishment on the person who does wrong.

5
Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath of the authorities but also because of your conscience. 6 For this reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants devoted to governing. 7 Pay everyone what is owed: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. 8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet,” (and if there is any other commandment) are summed up in this, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 And do this because we know the time, that it is already the hour for us to awake from sleep, for our salvation is now nearer than when we became believers. 12 The night has advanced toward dawn; the day is near. So then we must lay aside the works of darkness, and put on the weapons of light. 13 Let us live decently as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in discord and jealousy. 14 Instead, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to arouse its desires.

It was Romans 13 cited recently by Jeff Sessions, Sarah Huckabee and others justifying Trump's policy of separating kids from folks down on the border. Was Paul really endorsing the same government that executed Jesus or was he trying to save his own skin?
 
Yep. I also believe God supports governments after successful revolution.
 
Yep. I also believe God supports governments after successful revolution.

Yet according to 13:2 during the revolution they are revolting against God's will. I'm no theologian but this seems contradictory. :mischief:
 
Apparently not supportive of evil governments: "for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad." Rulers are also subject to the will of God, and when they rebel against God's will by causing fear among those who do no ill themselves they lose their authority.

As to the specifics of Paul's writings while in prison...Rome was the vehicle for the spreading of the gospel...or could have been incited to stamp out the (then) small Christian sect as a rebellious element, as the collaborative puppet government of Judea wanted Rome to do. There was always, among the early Christians, an element that wanted to see Christ return immediately, give Rome their comeuppance, and free Judea on the spot. Paul was enjoining them not to claim his imprisonment as a "sign" that they should rise up. Paul had the clarity of vision to understand that Christianity is a long game with a larger purpose than freeing Jerusalem from Roman rule.
 
Yep. I also believe God supports governments after successful revolution.
Pol Pot? Lenin/Stalin? Mao? Burmese Hunta?

How about Atahualpa? He won the civil war, and then god sent small pox, typhus and Pizzaro.
 
Pol Pot? Lenin/Stalin? Mao? Burmese Hunta?

How about Atahualpa? He won the civil war, and then god sent small pox, typhus and Pizzaro.
Whom God saves who can destroy? Whom God destroys who can save?
 
the creator... if we were made in God's image, then God aint the creator, God is just another life form spawned by creation. A thousand years for man is like a day to God. That means God is not immortal.
Again, meaningless with some definitions.

What if god =creator? What if time is just a human concept?
 
Meaningless in the context of this conversation. Sorry.
Sorry to hear that. I am under impression that what we call good or bad governence doesnt necessarily be that in the wider scheme of things or in Gods vision. Gods will being the element for manifestation of that vision then seems to me to be core point of view one has to take into account in assesing meaning of scripture such as Bible.
 
Sorry to hear that. I am under impression that what we call good or bad governence doesnt necessarily be that in the wider scheme of things or in Gods vision. Gods will being the element for manifestation of that vision then seems to me to be core point of view one has to take into account in assesing meaning of scripture such as Bible.

You said:
Yep. I also believe God supports governments after successful revolution.
Then,
Whom God saves who can destroy? Whom God destroys who can save?
Did God choose Pol Pot and therefor his terrible rule was sanctioned by god? How about his overthrow?

Does "god's will" mean "god choose" something to happen? Just how active is god in choosing the details of what happens to individuals?
 
You said:
Then, Did God choose Pol Pot and therefor his terrible rule was sanctioned by god? How about his overthrow?

Does "god's will" mean "god choose" something to happen? Just how active is god in choosing the details of what happens to individuals?
I have a spiritual/occult type of answers to your questions but it seems to me that Paul is talking about the matter rather in socio-religious manner.
 
Again, meaningless with some definitions.

What if god =creator? What if time is just a human concept?

according to one of the gnostic gospels Jesus said the creator is not to be worshiped, it is a thing, not God

God (in the bible) spoke of time too, 6 days of creation, 120 years for man, and the verse I mentioned comparing 1000 human years to a day in God's life
 
I have a spiritual/occult type of answers to your questions but it seems to me that Paul is talking about the matter rather in socio-religious manner.
Ok; but do read your right justified signature entry. ;)
 
according to one of the gnostic gospels Jesus said the creator is not to be worshiped, it is a thing, not God

God (in the bible) spoke of time too, 6 days of creation, 120 years for man, and the verse I mentioned comparing 1000 human years to a day in God's life
Some persons wrote a Hebrew creation story that was included in the Christian Bible and that story used time to sequence events and compare something that was known to something that was not known. How many assumptions must be in place before what you have said even becomes plausible?

To begin:
All of the Bible is true
Some of the Bible is true: subset-Only what I choose from the Bible is true
None of the Bible is true
etc. etc.

By cherry picking quotes from the Bible (or any other religious/mythological text) you can tell any story you would like to tell and even contradictory stories.

IIRC one of the psalms, (90 something?) was said to be prophetic and foretold the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and Gulf war. Of course this was not revealed until after the war, but .....
 
The authors put words in God's mouth, among those words are 'divine' time frames. Now if you believe their god doesn't exist then of course biblical time would be a human concept, But there is evidence the Bible has 2 concepts of time - one human and the other divine.

For example, the mesopotamian 'sar' is the unit of time for the reigns of their gods and it shows up in the Bible when God says man's days are numbered 120 years. It was 120 sars from the beginning of divine rule up to the Flood. A sar is 3,600 years, so thats 432,000 years. Anyone familiar with mythology will already know how widespread that number is; Joseph Campbell spent some time in The Masks of God contemplating that fact, he noted how it shows up in Norse, Indian, and Cambodian myth and architecture.

I just have difficulty believing a being (God) who made us in his image created existence. God has a lifespan too, and God didn't want to share it with us after Adam became like God knowing good and evil. They (God and his buddies) kicked the humans out of the Garden lest they partake of the tree of life. Maybe the tree is why God lives so long.
 
I'm having difficulty understanding how this fantastical divergence into the nature of God has anything to do with the thread title (or the original post).
 
But there is evidence the Bible has 2 concepts of time - one human and the other divine.

The key, and incomprehensible, concept when considering time and the omnipotence of God is non-linearity. The human perception of time, and thus the only way we can conceive of it, is linearly. That was then, this is now, and the future is coming. So we view the creation as having been done by God in some sort of interval with the "been created" then existing through some span which we are currently somewhere within. With a holistic perception of time God perceives the entirety of existence in the creation.

This leads to difficulties in comprehending the "afterlife," and the "fulfillment of God's plan," and many other concepts. But the best illustration is provided by the sacrifice of Jesus for the redemption of man from sin. It was not for the redemption from sins that had previously been committed, or from sins that had been committed during the interval of Christ's life, it is redemption from all sin. In the perception of God there is no "point in time" with a different condition "after" than there was "before," there is just redemption.
 
The authors put words in God's mouth, among those words are 'divine' time frames. Now if you believe their god doesn't exist then of course biblical time would be a human concept, But there is evidence the Bible has 2 concepts of time - one human and the other divine.
Yes they did. I'm not even sure that god has a mouth. So how do we know which words, if any, that were put there, are true? Whose word should we believe?
I just have difficulty believing a being (God) who made us in his image created existence. God has a lifespan too, and God didn't want to share it with us after Adam became like God knowing good and evil. They (God and his buddies) kicked the humans out of the Garden lest they partake of the tree of life. Maybe the tree is why God lives so long.
Why should your inability, ignorance, or limited consciousness play any part in establishing the nature of god? Wouldn't god's nature be quite independent of human thinking?

I am quite confused as to what or how you characterize god (and his buddies) and fit them into both what we know and what we don't know. Could you explain?
 
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