Start Location Advice

[Ellerby]

I would switch production to something else (scout or slinger). But more importantly I would switch the worked tile. 13 turns till 2 pop is way to long!
With the free builder I would switch to a 3 food tile until 2 pop. (Without the free builder I would maybe have chosen the 2 food, 2 cogs stone tile.)

I actually did switch to the 2 food 2 cog tile. What's your reasoning behind going for a 3 food tile with the free builder? Chopping whatever I'm going to produce next?

Because if so then I won't having mining researched for another 9 turns. So what does the builder do until then?

 

[Rosty K]

Now that's when revealing the area shows that you never know. There could have been 2 cities here, but now there can't

I'd build a slinger or another warrior. Somehow I have a suspicion that this is not a large land mass, so a scout might be useless.

 

[MrRadar]

I'd switch to scout then settler. You'd have nothing to do for two builders. And yes, manage your citizens! 13 turns to 2 pop is a no no! The builder is very good luck, I may even work the cow for growth, get animal husbandry get those 2 cows improved.

Edit: Also, an early builder from a goody hut in this position gives you chance to quarry that stone for eureka, have a few cogs out of it, and later, when time comes, remove the quarry and chop it.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Just starting a game as England and got this start location. I'm trying to improve at the game and would be very interested to hear some different opinions on where you would choose to settle and why.

I'm thinking maybe ill move down and to the left, on the coastal hill, but obviously this means losing a little time. How bad is this? is it something you would try to avoid?

My decision tree goes something like this:

1. No luxuries to settle on. Too bad.
2. Lots of plains hills in range. That's good luck. Plains hills are great starting tiles for cities, as the city tile will generate 2F, 2P rather than just 2F, 1P.
3. No 5 yield tiles in sight. Those are worth moving towards, but we don't see any after your Warrior has finished moving.
4. There are a number of 4 yield tiles. For your initial city, I prefer the 2F/2P tiles over the 1F/3P tiles, but having both is even better, as it gives you flexibility in generating early yields.
5. The plains hill due west of your starting Settler has two 2F/2P tiles within two hexes, and a 1F/3P tile in it's inner ring. I'm inclined towards that tile.
6. That tile, however, does not have water access. I don't normally care about water access, but I do for my initial city. So I either create a challenge for myself in settling a no water initial city, or I delay settling to move to the river.
7. Both plains hills tiles on the river have within two hexes three different resources that can be improved: Stone (Quarry), Cattle (Pasture), Wheat (Farm). That's ideal for hitting early Eurekas.
8. Both plains hills tiles on the river have space to put a Campus beside a Mountain (and a Holy Site, too, if you're going for a religion). That's ideal for getting early Science (and a little extra Faith).
9. The plains hills tile two spaces east of the Cattle only has one 2F/2P tile within two hexes based on initial visibility whereas the one to it's west has two. Within the inner tile, count is one/zero. So I'm inclined to go for the more westerly of the two.
10. The quickest route to that tile, however, can pass over the other river plains hill so I take that route, and evaluate whether it reveals any tiles that change my mind.
11. When I get to that more easterly river plains hills, there are no new interesting yield tiles to change my mind, but by then the Warrior has confirmed where the eastern coastline is. If I proceed on to intended tile (the one you settled), then the only tile I can add a new city on to my east west is the grassland woods to the far northwest. If I stop here, I can still add a city to that far northwest grassland woods tile, and I can add a city to the grassland hills to the southwest. Leaving room for an extra city causes me to stop and settle this tile instead.

 

[Disgustipated]

I'd settle the plains hill NW of the wheat.

I was thinking plains hill SW of the wheat. At least this would give you another hammer per turn, making this poor start location somewhat workable. You won't get the sailing boost, but that's fine. The amber will be out of reach, but another city could probably pick that up, amber isn't that great anyways.

edit: whoops, didn't notice no fresh water. It's easier doing this in game.

 

[Ellerby]

Ok so as you can see I settled my second city on top of some mercury, i'm not sure if this was correct as the area is a bit meh, but I wanted the quick lux. I'm probably going to put my third in the north east where the warrior is standing. This looks like ill have access to sugar with a builder, fresh water and some production from the jungle tiles.

Penny for your thoughts?

EDIT: I would have have settled on the salt South East of Preslav if it was a tile further away.

 

[Cerilis]

what kind of start gives you only one lux in ring 3 anyway^^

 

[eleven11]

I was thinking plains hill SW of the wheat. At least this would give you another hammer per turn, making this poor start location somewhat workable. You won't get the sailing boost, but that's fine. The amber will be out of reach, but another city could probably pick that up, amber isn't that great anyways.

Like it was mentioned, I too like my capital to have a fresh water start. But now that I've seen the larger map, I would have settled in place lol. That would have allowed a river port due west and a river port due North East both with decent production. I dunno, I like a strong capital and I reach to make that happen sometimes. If there was just one more resource tile (anything really) in range of the starting tile I would have settled in place without question.

There are benefits to be gained by moving though, as Trav'ling Canuck detailed. Most notable are the chops and eurekas

 

[MrRadar]

RNG gods weren't kind to you. Take Preslav, to get back on them. It has Whales.

Looking at this, capital one tile east from present position and a couple other cities in the west made more sense

 

[eleven11]

Ok so as you can see I settled my second city on top of some mercury, i'm not sure if this was correct as the area is a bit meh, but I wanted the quick lux. I'm probably going to put my third in the north east where the warrior is standing. This looks like ill have access to sugar with a builder, fresh water and some production from the jungle tiles.

Penny for your thoughts?

It's a good spot. The best of the remaining revealed area.

Take Preslav, to get back on them. It has Whales.

This. When the game gives you lemons, kill City States. I think that's how the saying goes...

 

[Ellerby]

Hahaha brilliant. Thanks so much guys. Currently tooling up to go and bash Preslav.

 

[AlannaT]

I noticed the thread moved on but I'd still like to answer.

I actually did switch to the 2 food 2 cog tile. What's your reasoning behind going for a 3 food tile with the free builder? Chopping whatever I'm going to produce next?
Because if so then I won't having mining researched for another 9 turns. So what does the builder do until then?

It's first about maximizing yields and second about speeding up the settler. When I have a 3 food tile available I usually work it first because I have a second pop after only 5 turns that can then work too. Pretty soon I will have accumulated more yields overall than if I had started with a high production/low food tile. It's sort of an upfront investment that is guaranteed to return profit. This changes however once you approach your housing limit and/or have too few amenities. In that case you usually don't profit (or not much) from additional population and thus the value of food yields drops dramatically.

The same logic applies to getting that first settler out as soon as possible. If I can settle my second city at turn 25 instead of turn 35 this is a huge advantage (10 bonus turns for that city to grow and become productive). But if I start my first city by working a 1 food tile I slow down the whole process. In your screenshot from earlier: If you'd continued as set you would have finished your builder quite fast but would still be at pop 1. So you'd not have been able to produce the settler next. So you'd produce something else. 6 more turns and you hit pop 2 finally. Now you can work on that settler. But with such slow growth you won't hit pop 3 until the settler is finished and are back to 1 pop (= only 1 worked tile) for a few turns after.

But there is some competition for 3 food tiles as first worked tile, namely 2 food tiles with 2+ production or with 1 culture. 2 food and 2 production like the stone hills tile in your game are the best of both worlds. It delays growth only by 2-3 turns but still offers solid production. And early game culture is fantastic - those early civics are heavy boosts to any empire and the faster you can get them the better.

So where is the connection to the free builder?
I want an early builder for building improvements (duh) but also to get the inspiration for Craftsmanship. Ideally I want Craftsmanship before I produce military to combine that with Agoge. That's (part of) the reason some people (like you) start with builder first. As you might notice: it's all about timing. If I go builder first, I want to have that dude as quick as possible without stunting my growth. So I would work the 2 food 2 production tile. With the free builder from the goody hut though you were essentially gifted about 10 turns of production which means you can afford to work the 3 food tile for a few rounds (until pop 2) and thus starting with the settler 2-3 turns earlier than otherwise.

So as you can see from my arguments I would certainly not chop with that first builder because I need all 3 builds for that inspiration.

 

[Ellerby]

Thank you for the reply. That all makes perfect sense. So you would basically be happy for the builder to just sit around until I'd researched something for him to start building? Like pastures or quarries?

 

[AlannaT]

Thank you for the reply. That all makes perfect sense. So you would basically be happy for the builder to just sit around until I'd researched something for him to start building? Like pastures or quarries?

Generally yes. In your game I might have build a farm on wheat while waiting for mining/animal husbandry. That farm gives me a 4 yield tile and nets an eureka as bonus.

There are some rounds where there really aren't any useful improvements. Jungle starts with irrigation luxuries are on top of that list. But in that case I wouldn't go builder first. If I get a free one I don't mind letting him wait. I only hate it if I build something and then it sits around doing nothing.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Ok, this is what I went for. Turn 4 starting city seems painful, but hey ho, i'll run with it. My warrior did get a free builder from a goody hut on the tile he is currently sitting on and there is another goody hut to the north.

So my next questions would be, as I was already building a builder (then got a free one) would you switch to a scout now? or are two builders worth it? And what would be your priority for the free builder?

I'm not trying to get you to play my game for me. Just curious as to how peoples thought processes and playstyles differ from what I would do.

I find this sort of discussion extremely interesting so thank you all very much for your input.

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party but you chose the same spot that I would have for London. I'd have cranked out a scout/slinger/settler (or maybe a monument, which would arguably be better but I like gambling on early scouts) by working the 3h tile to get the scout out fast. I guess I'd probably tech AH first and then mining. I'd improve the wheat, the cows and the stone for inspirations and hammers as I unlocked the techs for the Craftsmanship inspiration. I'd have considered putting my second city on the marble- I like the trees/hill location but I don't want to lose the chop. That would give it nice starting hammers and opens the way for a RND/Hub triangle later. Take down the CS with archers and warriors and work from there. This start isn't nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be. You don't have a lot of chops but you do have good starting production, which is enough to get you rolling.

 

[Ellerby]

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party but you chose the same spot that I would have for London. I'd have cranked out a scout/slinger/settler (or maybe a monument, which would arguably be better but I like gambling on early scouts) by working the 3h tile to get the scout out fast. I guess I'd probably tech AH first and then mining. I'd improve the wheat, the cows and the stone for inspirations and hammers as I unlocked the techs for the Craftsmanship inspiration. I'd have considered putting my second city on the marble- I like the trees/hill location but I don't want to lose the chop. That would give it nice starting hammers and opens the way for a RND/Hub triangle later. Take down the CS with archers and warriors and work from there. This start isn't nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be. You don't have a lot of chops but you do have good starting production, which is enough to get you rolling.

Thanks for joining in. Would you mind explaining to me how the RND/Hub triangle works please?

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Well, if I had settled on the marble I could build a commercial hub between the river and my city center. The Royal Navy Dockyard (Harbor) goes in the water adjacent to both. This maximizes the adjacency bonuses for both districts.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Thanks for joining in. Would you mind explaining to me how the RND/Hub triangle works please?

City on the coast, Commercial Hub also on the coast and beside the City (ideally on a river), Harbour in the coastal tile between them (ideally also adjacent to a sea resource or two).

The Harbour gets a bonus for being beside the City (and any sea resources). The Commercial Hub gets a bonus for being beside the Harbour (and the river). Both get a bonus for being adjacent to two other districts.

 

[Ellerby]

Ahh right, got it. Ta.

Is it worth prioritising the techs to enable this if the start allows for it? Or just something that happens as a natural progression of the game?

Seems like a lot of hoops to jump through if you don't get a decent coastal river start.

 

[RealHuhn]

London is in an excellent spot but that 2nd city is very weak.

You should treat the 2nd city with the same criteria as your capital. If there are no good production tiles in the first ring or at least 2nd ring for a quick tile purchase, then don't settle there. Why even build an expensive settler when all that city can do after settling is building a worker or monument in like 15 turns? That's such a waste of production and time from a pure mathemetical point of view. Also, your culture progression is way too slow. Either rushbuy a monument immediately in your 2nd city or build one in your capital. Or even do both. You'll be surprised how quickly you can get to Early Empire with this and just use the +50% settler card and Magnus to chop them.
Also, a little trick if you go Settler before builder. You can use the builder's 3rd charge to improve the best tile in your 2nd city. That way, it's very productive even at low population.