Starting Location

Also throughout history, most of the major countries drew maps with them at the center. Until recently even maps in the US and other countries in the western hemisphere drew maps where the western hemisphere was centered horizontally. In Venezuala there is a giant 80 foot mural of a map which has the South on top and the North on the bottom. How does this apply to civ?

(1) The map centers around your first capital until some scientific event agrees on a common map for everyone(Industrial Age).
(2) All the civs get either 0,90,180, or 270 degrees designated as Up. Until compasses are discovered, you view the world from that rotation.
(3) Maps will wrap in all directions, since everybody will be playing with different points of reference.
(4) The minimap would be avaliable once mapmaking was avaliable. You could also view the maps your explorers have made and compare then to ones that you bought from opponents, and you could even see the composite. In these projections all land is distorted as being smaller the farther it is from the central point(makes your country look bigger). Somehow this perception of how the world looks should effect diplomacy(it did for thousands of years)
(5) The first one to launch a satellite would get to determine the prime meridian and get a complete 3D view of the world.
 
I propose that the starting location, that is, what you yourself see on the map is your civ in the center of the globe. All I'm saying is shift the map so that is looks like your civ is in the center.

Something I have thought for a very long time but never got around to posting.

Perhaps if the mini map was 'zommed' into all the terrain you knew.. So If you had a random world size you wouldn't even know how big the planet was.

better and better

I like this idea. It is simple, yet achieves the purpose.

this is serious understatement. The idea so incredibly good (and simple) now that it has been expressed so clearly, that there is absolutely no excuse for it not being implemented.
 
The only problems are these(remember, someone has to be devil's advocate, I love this idea personally).

1) It would have to be able to be turned off. Some players would not like this sytem and the lack of control.
2) The AI should have the same viewing constrints or they get a huge huge advantage of knowing which direction to go.
 
Sir,

As far as the ability to turn it off goes, I have no real problem, but since it is an integral game improvement, I see no reason to pander to people who hanker after a less adequate system. The, admitedly extreme, logic behind your statement is that the present game should still also be able to play just like the original Civilization (I have sometimes wondered about asking the designers to bring in an option for plaing it like the original board game:D), minus bugs of course. Still if it is easy to implement as optional then I wouldn't waste time arguing over it.

For your second point I have to take issue a little bit. What the AI can and cannot see and do is about the gaming experience and there are two vital strands to this.
Firstly, its behaviour must be consistent but not necessarily predictable) throughout and it must be "realistic" in game terms. By this I mean that there should not be "incidents" that seem supernatural in game terms (a simple example would be the sudden appearance of a large army in an area it could not have reached without being observed and in circumstances where the player was actually looking in the right places).
Secondly, it must be designed to produce sufficient challenge for the most skilled and experienced players so that they can continue to enjoy playing the game.
Now there is always potential conflict between these two requirements and in the early days (with all games, not just the one true game) there had to be considerable compromise of the first requirement to reasonably satisfy the second. This is less true now, but it is still the case that designers do not have the resources to develop the ultimate AI engine for such a complex game.
Consequently I could accept a situation whereby the AI "knows" a little more about the shape of the world than the player does if it was important to maintaining its ablility to challenge me, but I would prefer such knowledge to have no obvious and anomalous manifestations while I was playing. In other words if someone could prove that the AI had this foreknowledge only by conducting extensive analytical trials, it would not bother me as much as the worry about that poor person's waste of valuable playing time.
Obviously it would be preferable for your requirement to be met, all else being equal.

Cheers,

Algae
 
Another example of geographic perspective is how the civilizations of ancient Mesopotamia viewed the world as west being north an east being south, hence why they called the Mediterranean the "North Sea" and the Persian Gulf the "South Sea"
 
I think I get the idea. It would go like this: You get mapmaking, then explore around the capital. The mini-mapwould expand/zoom out to show land that you have expored.
This is correct way of looking at it, right?
 
A nice, simple idea that shouldn't be hard to implement... I like it :thumbsup:


Ted
 
I'll agree with TedJackson on this one...thumbs up. Adds strategy. Pretty easy to implement (I would think/hope). Makes exploration more interesting/challenging.

Of the ideas, I think I like the zoomed-in minimap to what you know best with the minimap appearing at a certain tech (which makes it easily moddable -- always a plus) second.

Arathorn
 
Cartography as we know it today wasn’t developed until 19th century. Before that, maps were very inaccurate, with lots of imprecision in land features, distances, etc. which is normal, since there were no apropriate instruments to measure distances, heights, etc. correctly.

So, I find weird when I trade maps with a civilization in another continent during the Middle Ages, and I immediately know exactly how far it is, and all the details of its territory.

I also dislike the fact that by approximately 1350 AD I already know the geography of the entire world.

Maybe the game would be more interesting and challenging if the world map would be known in detail only in the modern age.

Nevertheless, through diplomacy or spying, civs could become aware of some important features of foreign lands, such as valuable resources, or location of important cities. Through diplomacy we could choose to trade important locations, instead of just trading the whole territory or world map.
 
A point that’s been mentioned elsewhere a bit too (haven’t they all though), is somehow slowing down the rate at which the world can be explored and mapped overall in Civ. Only in fairly recent history overall have we finally explored and charted the whole world with accuracy.

So, here are some ideas to better simulate these limitations. Units and explorers face greater challenges to health and longevity the further from your borders they attempt to travel. There are perils to traveling through wilderness...lack of water or food, diseases, wild animals, bandits attacking (well, barbarians covers this maybe). I think that in the earlier ages it would be very difficult to explore far before your unit died or was killed, and that it probably shouldn’t be your military units doing the exploring. I mean, who sent out a legion of troops to explore? You send out parties of explorers with light armament probably. And the early world would be an inhospitable place to wanderers.

Stretches of desert or ocean or deep forests and other inhibiting terrain types would be difficult or impossible to get through until later techs enabled further and safer travel, even much later in some cases (like with Navigation). Finding trade routes to build between nations (a daunting task taking longer than before) would be important and maybe difficult for quite a while. Roads should be expensive through wilderness.

Explorers would move perhaps two tiles at a time in early times which no other unit except a horseman or chariot in the open could do, and would be vulnerable to the above mentioned many perils. They might even have “expiration dates”. An explorer can only move through X tiles of wilderness once leaving an established city, and would likely die of starvation, disease, old age, or other causes even before that. However, explorers should be allowed to “reset” if they can reach a city of another nation where they would restock and regain health, assuming the nation lets them into its borders. If not, the unit would likely die in the wilderness.

Military units need supply routes to keep from degrading as mentioned in other proposals. You wouldn’t send a troop of spearmen wandering off into the jungles, forests, deserts, or mountains. They would degrade and become useless as military units and be easy prey to disease, barbarians, and other threats like explorers. Military units are for protecting cities, for marching down securable highways to invade your neighbors, and occupying fortress outposts, etc. where they maintain their supplied strength. But back to explorers and mapping...

In earliest times, mountains cannot be crossed by any units nor a road built thereon. You might find a pass through or a way around, but it might take numerous exploring attempts to get that far. Mapping obviously would take a long time, but the game would encourage you to really focus on tightly building and improving your first few cities early on rather than rapidly expanding all over the map as fast as you could. If barbarians, diseases, enemies, corruption, or the rate of being able to road or build settlers was sufficiently daunting, you wouldn’t be practically able to spread out too far from your capitol for quite a while early on. Early civs would start very localized for somet time, and might even be boxed in ultimately by surrounding terrain. It’s simply hard to map very far from your own lands for a long time, and you really might not meet many of your neighbors for a while longer than at present typically...certainly not directly any more. You’d get information or diplomatic connections with them from your neighbors in more of a chain fashion.

Rivers would carry boats and act as natural roads, pehaps as in Civ II. A river through the mountains in early times is a great way to get through to the other side before roads can be built affordably in mountains. Perhaps roads through mountains are just very expensive and time-consuming early on, so it can be done, but at great sacrifice to resources needed to maintain and grow your young empire. Roads shouldn’t be an imporovement pillaged by barbarians or enemies any more. I mean, how often does anyone really destroy 33 miles of road? Rather, military units block and occupy them to cut off supply lines and trade routes. If an enemy parks a military unit on your road in the mountain pass, they have blocked your supply route over that mountain from your capitol to whatever lies on the other side...a city, a trade route, your supply of iron. Bridges should be a terrain improvement which could be pillaged for similar effect however, forcing you to rebuild it which takes time.



The early rates of expansion and settlement would overall be a lot slower, as settlers too should face greater challenges and risks. Later on, as tech improves and more national contact has occurred, maps get better, explorers are more hardy and able, settlers get where they are going more often, terrain can be penetrated more deeply, and so forth. I love the exploration and settlement phase of the game. This should be extended much further into the game as it was in the real world instead of being an Oklahoma land rush.
 
I like how they do listen to a lot of what we say maps and zooming, no centering of the maps till map-making, and 3d world maps.
 
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