State Property & Caste System

[mrt144]

on the last point:

id say yes, but you need to actively prune their resources and/or trade in ways that inhibit their benefits as much as possible. you still get paid presumably whether that corp is working or not. for instance using your espionage points to destroy their only source of x resource such as oil and then selling them oil for resources that help with hammers.
or if another civ establishes a corp and pushes it on your civ, you should do your best to destroy their resources or trade as much as possible to capture the free ones on the open market.


its all about controlling the resources, the corporation locations are secondary to this, from what i can tell at this point.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

With the new oversea maintenance, I'm interested to see how many Colonies a Portuguese AI player would create before we discover them.

----
Back on topic, I think the full comparison won't be realized until all things are factored in:

• Will it be easy to build & establish execs? Do AI's tend to favour allowing your corporations in or do they typically run Mercantilism or State Property?
• Will the corporation discount of FM joined with raw purchasing power of US be sufficient to balance the pure production power of CS/SP? How much will a corporation generate by late game? Enough to outright buy some serious military/infrastructure every turn or two - essentially gaining the + bonus & a serious stockpile?
• Will you even want to send it to the AI if it is as powerful as it is being theorized? How many opponents will be available to 'exploit' with the appropriate conditions that won't benefit them too much?

I am dieing to get the new expansion and try out my strategy. Until then, I can only dream of its true manifestation...and global implications...

Right now, I'm thinking that you could in theory manipulate your tech path to get to corporations sooner than some would expect. Additionally, I ponder the AI's attitude toward corporate exploitation...Finally, it seems like a challenge right up my ally. Now, I can find a new way to win...

On the flip side...corporate power wont be everything, but it could be an interesting tactic...another way to cripple the AI. You have Privateers...Blockades...Spies...Corporations...This feels like true modern warfare, where the mighty strangle the weak financially, and then...when they are economically broken and their infrastructure is decaying...and their morale is lagging....then...then you go in for the kill...(Insert Evil maniacal laugh).

 

[mrt144]

on that note, the sp/cs can benefit from resource control. either making unfair trades or just flat out refusing. in either case utilizing colonies and vassals is going to be huge. or not!!!

really itll come to diplomacy.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

The new mechanics of vassals and colonies (resource control helps the corporate strategy more, but I can see the benefit to a CS&SP combo strategy also) is going to be crucial in this expansion. Someone else mentioned the East India Company mod potential...exactly what I am talking about here...Resource monopolies and backward country exploitation and colonial manipulation is what the imperial time periods of the pre-industrial/industrial periods were all about! I can finally get a benefit other than racing to a domination win by controlling a vast empire. No longer does a space race mean sitting on several cities. So much more depth and choice now.

 

[ShredZ]

One thing I havent seen mentioned is which AI to spread the corps to. Im thinking find an AI with low/limited resources and spread it to them, that way they get none of the advantages of a corp, but still hafta pay you the maintenance for it. The only thing I can think of to counteract that is they might block you by picking an appropriate civic...

Basically spreading corps to a powerful civ might not be a smart idea...

 

[homan1983]

The new mechanics of vassals and colonies (resource control helps the corporate strategy more, but I can see the benefit to a CS&SP combo strategy also) is going to be crucial in this expansion. Someone else mentioned the East India Company mod potential...exactly what I am talking about here...Resource monopolies and backward country exploitation and colonial manipulation is what the imperial time periods of the pre-industrial/industrial periods were all about! I can finally get a benefit other than racing to a domination win by controlling a vast empire. No longer does a space race mean sitting on several cities. So much more depth and choice now.

yes Yes YES my thoughts exactly

 

[jkp1187]

Well, it's been several days now, and I hear Drew has his own copy somehow. Has anyone tried the CS-SP civics yet?

I would think that expanding to other continents is not necessarily hobbled by the overseas maintenance thing (which is apparently called "Colonial Maintenance") as a Forbidden Palace or Versailles in a foreign land will work to reduce all maintenance costs. So even though SP does not reduce this 'colonial maintenance', with the savings from the no 'distance to palace' maintenance + a strategically placed FP/Versailles, it can still work for globe-spanning empires.

Thoughts?

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Well, it's been several days now, and I hear Drew has his own copy somehow. Has anyone tried the CS-SP civics yet?

I would think that expanding to other continents is not necessarily hobbled by the overseas maintenance thing (which is apparently called "Colonial Maintenance") as a Forbidden Palace or Versailles in a foreign land will work to reduce all maintenance costs. So even though SP does not reduce this 'colonial maintenance', with the savings from the no 'distance to palace' maintenance + a strategically placed FP/Versailles, it can still work for globe-spanning empires.

Thoughts?

I haven't actually got that far in a game yet, as marathon takes ages. The one big game went into an infinite loop at turn 695 1600AD (see "waiting for ais" bug report forum),so that was the end of that... will give a report here as soon as I get that far in a game.

Mine isn't a torrent or anything illegal like btw, its patched to vs 3.02.

 

[jkp1187]

I haven't actually got that far in a game yet, as marathon takes ages. The one big game went into an infinite loop at turn 695 1600AD (see "waiting for ais" bug report forum),so that was the end of that... will give a report here as soon as I get that far in a game.

Mine isn't a torrent or anything illegal like btw, its patched to vs 3.02.

Well, c'mon, man, you're representing for all non-Beta testing Americans here. Goose that thing up to at least "Normal' and let's go!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well, it's been several days now, and I hear Drew has his own copy somehow. Has anyone tried the CS-SP civics yet?

I would think that expanding to other continents is not necessarily hobbled by the overseas maintenance thing (which is apparently called "Colonial Maintenance") as a Forbidden Palace or Versailles in a foreign land will work to reduce all maintenance costs. So even though SP does not reduce this 'colonial maintenance', with the savings from the no 'distance to palace' maintenance + a strategically placed FP/Versailles, it can still work for globe-spanning empires.

Thoughts?

I think Verssailles/FP only work on distance maintenance, so putting them on another continent will not reduce colonial maintenance.

 

[jkp1187]

I think Verssailles/FP only work on distance maintenance, so putting them on another continent will not reduce colonial maintenance.

Not per Solver: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4991167#post4991167

(Follow the conversation between he and I down a few posts).

 

[Indiansmoke]

The problem with this combo is that usually when I reach communism, I already have 3-4 very good production cities. What will an extra 10% production do? Maybe save 1 or 2 turns off spacip parts but thats all. On the other had Free Market with corporations spread out or Merchandilism with Representation give a research bonus that in more valuable in my opinion.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Not per Solver: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4991167#post4991167

(Follow the conversation between he and I down a few posts).

He says that Versailles and FP "still reduce all maintenance"
"still"? in Warlords/Vanilla they only affected Distance Maintenance as far as I know

 

[jkp1187]

The problem with this combo is that usually when I reach communism, I already have 3-4 very good production cities. What will an extra 10% production do? Maybe save 1 or 2 turns off spacip parts but thats all. On the other had Free Market with corporations spread out or Merchandilism with Representation give a research bonus that in more valuable in my opinion.

I wonder if Rep + Merc + CS might be a winner for a maritime empire with colonies around the world? While FM will remain a winner for the small, highly developed republic?

On the other hand, 1-2 turns off spaceship parts could mean the difference between winning and losing. Plus, as has been described above, the extra food from windmills and watermills is key to using SP. (Which is probably why I don't tend to use it that much -- I'm very much a cottage-spammer, so by the time I get to the end game, I really haven't 'laid the groundwork' for a successful SP push at the end, and hate the idea of tearing up towns....)

 

[jkp1187]

This proposal might be outrageous to some people here, but isn't it cleverer to spread production corporations (Mining inc & Creative Constructions) in financial cities? These cities often have very low production and a boost of 10 hammers could divide by 3 or 4 the amount of turn it takes to build thar university, bank, observatory or National Wonder (Wall street & Oxford University always take me ages to build). My reasoning is that a boost of 10 hammers to a city that already produces 60 or even 80 is far less important than the same boost to a city which has only a handfull of hammers. Also, it costs exactly the same maintenance whever the corp is in a production city or a commercial one.
Not only that, but once your cities have built all of the infrastructure that they need, you can gift away all of your copper, iron, stone and marble to cut down on that maintenace. Once you discover a new tech (ie, computers), you can call back all of your 'gifts' and boost your production for that all important new building (laboratory).

What is the reasoning behind "gifting" away resources? Do you not get charged a corp maintenance fee if the corp doesn't have the resources it needs? And wouldn't it be better to sell it for Gold Per Turn instead of gifting?

Otherwise, this could be a reasonable approach -- especially if FM is used, no?

 

[homan1983]

What is the reasoning behind "gifting" away resources? Do you not get charged a corp maintenance fee if the corp doesn't have the resources it needs?

The charge is proportional to the number of resources is consumes aka the potency of the effect applied.

The only amount fixed is that The Headquarter always gets +5 per city regardless of that city's corporation maintenance cost.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

This proposal might be outrageous to some people here, but isn't it cleverer to spread production corporations (Mining inc & Creative Constructions) in financial cities? These cities often have very low production and a boost of 10 hammers could divide by 3 or 4 the amount of turn it takes to build thar university, bank, observatory or National Wonder (Wall street & Oxford University always take me ages to build). My reasoning is that a boost of 10 hammers to a city that already produces 60 or even 80 is far less important than the same boost to a city which has only a handfull of hammers. Also, it costs exactly the same maintenance whever the corp is in a production city or a commercial one.
Not only that, but once your cities have built all of the infrastructure that they need, you can gift away all of your copper, iron, stone and marble to cut down on that maintenace. Once you discover a new tech (ie, computers), you can call back all of your 'gifts' and boost your production for that all important new building (laboratory).

The problem with + corporations is that they come a little too late to help with nearly every city improvement you mentioned.

Mining Inc. comes with Railroads (after Ironworks), and Creative Construction comes shortly thereafter with Combustion.

In fact, every corporation comes during either the Industrial or Modern Eras -- long after Oxford and Wall Street should have been founded.