Statue of Liberty....

Archon_Wing

Vote for me or die
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Apr 3, 2005
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Is this thing ever worth it? It's one of the most expensive wonders in the game and is at the end of a pretty dead end tech path that has little use either way unless emancipation unhappiness is killing you.
 
In most game it is a distraction, but Democracy not to hard to trade for in time to build it. Only good for Space really. If I have copper I might passively put some extra hammers into it. At least some fail gold, but sometimes you might just end up finishing it. I'd only pursuing it adamantly if I happened to have a well timed GE, which in most cases will not finish SoL outright, but can secure completing it. It's not a bad wonder if running Representation, which you should be anyway going to Space, and if you have a lot of cities on one landmass.

Ofc, any time a IND leader gets Demo first and has copper it will be gone quick regardless.
 
750 :hammers: (assuming you have access to copper) being built in a strong production city of yours gives your GP farm (along with all other cities) a free specialist. 750:hammers: put into Wealth is also good, but let's say you have 20 cities on one continent, a free scientist in 20 cities gives +60:science: per turn, or +120:science: with Representation if you haven't made the switch to Police State/Universal Suffrage. I see that paying off in roughly 10 turns with Rep, not including the + GP points from it. Can also switch the free specialist to an artist in new cities needing a border pop or when going for a cultural win, helping generate Great Artists faster (though you don't usually go for culture win with a large empire that's keeping up with tech).

So kinda like Lymond said, if using Rep and have a lot of cities on one continent, it's pretty good. Otherwise fail gold is preferred.
 
I suppose fail golding wonders (with the bonus resource) is not a bad idea either.
 
I would say it's an A wonder for space races on big maps (like HoF), and not actually that expensive cos of the copper bonus.
Free Rep scientist in your Academy / Ox Cap (+ several other bonuses by that time probably) should be as good as 3 elsewhere, then you also have Unis in others where they are worth ~10 beakers..and games still go on for much longer at this point.
 
I wouldn't build SoL unless I had a sizable advantage already... It's one of those jack of all trades that doesn't really advance any form of victory enough to justify the cost. Maybe if you're desperate to push towards Great people, to found corporation or something.

Generally, whatever map size, type, speed, civ, etc, I play, the game is generally finished by that time (whether win or lose for me)... Don't see under what circumstance these late game wonders even make a difference? Advanced Starts?
 
Well, ztrapon, for Space it's about pure beakers. If large enough, which is usual case you want to be very large for Space, it is about pure beakers rather than great people, although the boost in that does help with the late game golden ages. Again, don't lose sleep over not getting the wonder for sure, but if going for Space I may make a legitimate attempt for it if the cards are right.

If by advanced starts you mean "late era starts" I could see it being useful in the very late games. I've used it in late era culture games since the approach to culture is different, focusing more on corps. Actually an interesting game, that few folks ever try.
 
Well, ztrapon, for Space it's about pure beakers. If large enough, which is usual case you want to be very large for Space, it is about pure beakers rather than great people, although the boost in that does help with the late game golden ages. Again, don't lose sleep over not getting the wonder for sure, but if going for Space I may make a legitimate attempt for it if the cards are right.

If by advanced starts you mean "late era starts" I could see it being useful in the very late games. I've used it in late era culture games since the approach to culture is different, focusing more on corps. Actually an interesting game, that few folks ever try.
Sure, I'm not arguing against the benefit of SoL. And yeah, any form of Advanced start obviously alter the circumstances.

What I'm saying is, there is no strategy I can think of where building SoL really matters. It's not essential for anything, and let's say you're in a position where you have to choose: I'd nearly always take half a dozen infantry, several settlers, hell I'd even convert production to research or gold to acquire/upgrade new military units faster -- rather than SoL. It's more of a luxury wonder.

Whatever victory you aim for, except maybe Culture or Diplomatic, the better strategy is seldom to build wonders oneself, but a huge army to conquer wonders and gain lots of cities early. The payoff is just so much bigger per production.
 
What I'm saying is, there is no strategy I can think of where building SoL really matters.

Agree. If going for the SoL is a good choice, then you're winning anyway and even then you're still usually better of with more cannons and going for domination rather than space. Might have to make an exception for always peace games, but that's one of the most obscure custom settings.
 
I used to think it was huge back when I was a wonder whore, but as with most other wonders, i've backed off over the years. I don't go for many space games anymore either but maybe then I'd consider it more.
 
. It's more of a luxury wonder.
.

Yep, definitely true. It's more of a opportunistic build if going for Space, but by no means essential.
 
What I'm saying is, there is no strategy I can think of where building SoL really matters.
Maybe it doesn't matter for whether you win or not. If you are in a position to build it with a large enough empire that would make it pay off, then the game is most likely already won. But in competitive play, like HoF or GOTM/SGOTM where finish date matters, it's often an essential wonder. It can really help you shave a lot of turns of a space victory.
Whatever victory you aim for, except maybe Culture or Diplomatic, the better strategy is seldom to build wonders oneself, but a huge army to conquer wonders and gain lots of cities early. The payoff is just so much bigger per production.
I agree, conquer early. But this means nobody has time to build SoL for you... ;)
 
Late game stuff rarely makes a huge impact if you play alone against AIs (unless op), that's not just true for Civ :)
But as Elite wrote, it's a good wonder for competitive games.
Besides HoF and playing offline against other peoples, it's also possibly nice in mp.
Rating late wonders will always be difficult, trading ~600 hammers for 1 specialist in all cities on main land has potential and imo that's more than what we could say about many other builds that come late.
 
In terms of the min-maxing potential, it has merit. Though even then only if the game goes long enough i.e. Space, Score, etc.

Pragmatically, I never seem to find a real use for it since I generally prioritize either Communism, Chemistry>Steel, and/or Rifling before Democracy, and all these choices come after I decide on either medieval+seige, Curis, or fast cannon as my approach to dominating the AI first.. If I managed to snag Mids I'll delay it even longer. The wonder itself is expensive if you try to build it as early as possible (like Lib>Const>Demo), even with Copper, and the return takes many turns to add up and is small so isn't really felt unless you have a lot of cities and are in Rep at the point it finishes.

TLDR version I agree with this:
I used to think it was huge back when I was a wonder whore, but as with most other wonders, i've backed off over the years. I don't go for many space games anymore either but maybe then I'd consider it more.


I'm not very good at this game, I freely admit that. But I'm learning, such as I can. As I've been slowly shedding my build-lust newbie tendencies, dropping my crutch/reliance on my favorite leader (Roosevelt, or any FIN trait leader) and embracing the true realization of war as the true path to victory, most Wonders are ignorable unless IND/you manage to start with their resource. Only Mids really merit always taking a shot at if feasible to me, even down on my lowly difficulty where I can ALWAYS snag the Oracle first and thus also Colossus. Well, and the Kremlin, but it's much later. I've learned (slowly) the hard way that things like GLH, Colossus, Stonehenge, GW, even Oracle are mostly distractions--they slow you down, ultimately, unless they are critical to the map rolled. Even other wonders that I really like --Sistine, MoM, Notre Dame -- it's mostly better to simply TAKE such things from the AI who will largely prioritize them and race you for them anyway, as Music (for the free Artist or any culture flavored AI) and Engineering (warmongers heavily favor it or any AI under war pressure) are favored techs while Calendar tends to be a quick detour since AIs like teching Math and it unlocks a wonder.

The later game wonders are no exception, with the caveat that whether you can even get them or not depends on your relative position in the game: the earlier wonders might be easier to get, as there's less disparity between opponents before major events in the game unfold: wars, expansion, diplomatic alignments, etc. Later on, you can either be so far ahead that you could do anything you want, or so far behind that your progression is locked into conquering somebody and playing catch-up, or you could remained mired in war while a powerful techer like Willem or Mansa zooms up the Lib>Demo line in order to reach Emancipation and Free Speech that you can't catch them to compete for the wonder in the first place. Etc. Etc. The complexity of the system introduces less certainty of anything.

Transitioning into either the Workshop or Town economy after whatever your mid-game war plans are takes priority over building later wonders, and which is largely dictated by things like land, tech path, whether one wants to try for Space or not, etc. Even if I got Demo fast it would be for Emancipation growing cottages, the Statue would be an afterthought and if I could build it first I probably honestly didn't need it at that point. Or such is the way i see it.
 
I wouldn't say Oracle is a distraction. A Wonder that can provide a 1 time boost early enough in the game can be worth it in most situations where your not likely to face an early invasion. With Oracle, capturing it isn't going to do you much good but it's pretty cheap, and it comes quite early. Its like converting hammers to beakers with a varying rate of return based on available tech. Even on deity, it's possible to snag CoL with Oracle in plenty of situations. This is effectively converting 150 hammers to 350 beakers. Or, rarely but potentially, 75 hammers to 350 beakers if you have marble and a situation where masonry was a reasonable stopover.

SoL comes late, is very expensive, has situation-specific RoI and provides the same benefit if you capture it instead of building it.
 
So I was thinking, wait, what's the point of Oracle'ing CoL anyways? Religion? Meh. Fast Caste? Meh. Shorter journey to CS. Maybe. But seeing the noble AI sometimes get Oracle in 1200 BC; that just makes me distrust any deeper oracling.

But then it does make sense if you can use it as trade bait though which wouldn't be a thing at low difficulties but it makes great sense at Monarch and above as the AI gets alphabet sooner. In those cases it is worth several times the beakers.
 
Trade bait is one great reason but also unlocking courthouses for Org leaders/Holy Rome allowing faster REX recovery as well as fast beeline Civil Service for chain irrigation and bureau for cottage spam capital strategies. Also fast caste system for Philo leaders / specialist strats. Fast CS or Caste is nothing to scoff at. Popping borders with an artist in 3 turns is just a solid bonus to having an early GP surge. I don't think I have to mention why early bureau from CS can set you up for a win with a FIN leader and cottage spam capital.

IMO there's really very little reason not to grab CoL with Oracle unless your doing a fancy Engineering rush strat in which case metalcasting is another great Oracle grab which is even better at converting early hammers to research. 75-150 hammers for a whopping 450 research plus whatever you get in trades if you are so inclined.

There are situations where an Oracle bid is less than desirable but if the conditions are ripe, it can set you up for a massive lead very early.
 
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Or metal casing for cheap forges for industrious leaders.
 
I just flexed that muscle last night with DeGaulle (who I have completely underestimated up till now). Marble start but I didn't sidetrack to masonry before building Oracle. Took Metalcasting. Pulled off a super settled specialist game by chopping Mids. DeGaulle is surprisingly good.
 
..... with DeGaulle (who I have completely underestimated up till now). . DeGaulle is surprisingly good.

DeG is in my Top 5, but easily Top 10 of leaders. Nice high level leader with great trait combo of a civ with the best starting techs.

Terrible AI..lol

Kinda brings to mind something that I think of now and then as someone who has surely rolled over a 1000 random games over the years. DeG is very rarely rolled as a leader. I've noticed certain leaders get rolled much more often than others (think Joao, Sitting Butt, Willem), but not sure if there is some sort of bias in the code - never checked for it. Would make an interesting separate topic. (Come to think of it, all the French leaders are rarely rolled, but seems DeG most of all) Joao by far is the most rolled leader that I recall - seems he pops up at least once in every session of rolled games...and he's the most boring.
 
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