Stealth Fighters?

[Lordlombax]

So it just occured to me: What the heck are stealth fighters good for? The only mission they can really do is recon, which seems kind've stupid to me. They can bomb, but if you have the technology, youd have stealth bombers anyways. So is that all they do, recon?

 

[TheOverseer714]

Cheaper stealth bombers that can do precision bombing, unlike regular jet fighters and that get shot down less. In practice, a mostly useless unit because most of its bombing missions fail. Pay the bigger bucks for the stealth bomber, they have a huge range and rarely miss.

 

[ace_3399]

I don't use them. Stealth bombers are a lot better. I clear the air with my jet fighters and then bomb stuff with my stealth bombers. It works really well.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Completely, utterly useless. Use regular, cheap jets for recon/air superiority and engaging enemy air forces, use stealth bombers for the heavy hitting.

 

[vmxa]

I think I would temper that a bit and say they have one very useful function, if the game goes that far. You cannot bomb, what you cannot see. Stealth fighters can recon that fog that you suspect has a carrier or whatever ships.

Now you can use your stealth bombers to whack them, same for cities. You can bomb the city, but not the tiles, unless you can see them. The city can be bombed, but you do not see if it killed any units.

 

[capnvonbaron]

jets recon just as well though. Why build a stealth fighter just for recon when the same shields go to something that can recon AND defend?

 

[iron0037]

This was a well-timed post. I have been considering removing Stealth Fighters from my mod but worried I was missing some important function they serve. Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks they're worthless .

What about helicopters? Does anyone use those?

 

[vmxa]

jets recon just as well though. Why build a stealth fighter just for recon when the same shields go to something that can recon AND defend?

Jets do not have the range to find targets that a stealth bomber can reach, hence you need stealth fighters. Still not the range the bombers have, but closer.

I have had many times where I had a jet and it could not uncover the target, but once I got a stealth there, I see the target and it gets bombed.

 

[vmxa]

This was a well-timed post. I have been considering removing Stealth Fighters from my mod but worried I was missing some important function they serve. Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks they're worthless .

What about helicopters? Does anyone use those?

I do not and not many have confessed to using them. Useful in CivII though. Useful in Civ4 as well.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Jets do not have the range to find targets that a stealth bomber can reach, hence you need stealth fighters.

Does it change from vanilla? If I recon at the max range for a regular jet in vanilla, it will bust the fog out to the range of the stealth bomber's max range. Hence, I can see just as far as I want to bomb (jet range = 6, stealth bomber = 8)

What about helicopters? Does anyone use those?

Minorly useful. If my enemy has an important resource on a hill or mountain, I will try and drop in a few infantry to deny it to them. Once their use is done there, they make decent recon units while my fighters stay on air superiority or heal up from combat damage. Some people mod helicopters to carry more units than just one, or be able to carry mech inf/mod armor/arty. Just a thought.

 

[vmxa]

Does it change from vanilla? If I recon at the max range for a regular jet in vanilla, it will bust the fog out to the range of the stealth bomber's max range. Hence, I can see just as far as I want to bomb (jet range = 6, stealth bomber = 8)

Yes it is one of the many things improved in C3C over C3. The idea that a jet has the same numbers as a stealth is crazy and bombers have always had longer range than fighters.

It is Jets range 9 and stealth range 12, while stealth bombers have 16. In C3 the stealth fighter had 0/0/6, while the jet had 8/4/6, that is nuts.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Yes it is one of the many things improved in C3C over C3. The idea that a jet has the same numbers as a stealth is crazy and bombers have always had longer range than fighters.

It is Jets range 9 and stealth range 12, while stealth bombers have 16. In C3 the stealth fighter had 0/0/6, while the jet had 8/4/6, that is nuts.

Ah! Yeah that would make a difference!

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

I think the stealth fighter is a serious contestant for the "most useless unit" in civ3. Ranks right up there with the Paratrooper and Explorer. I have removed these from my own favorite mod and replaced it with something more useful. All the stealth fighter is good for is recon, and other units can do that as well, and recon missions are never shot down, so stealth is useless there. IRL, the Air Force has already retired the stealth fighter, lol.

The helicopter is very occasionally useful, if an enemy has a resource on a mountain, you can drop 4 TOW infantry onto it with a couple of helicopters. They will get killed, but this is a useful tactic for attriting the enemy and diverting his forces sometimes. Unfortunately the helicopter seems to be very vulnerable to enemy bombing, however, so use them right away if you choose to at all.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Ranks right up there with the Paratrooper and Explorer.

I dunno, I can't say I ever use the paratroopers at all, but there is a thread somewhere around for a good explorer usage...

In summary, they're great for cheap, mobile pillaging of enemy terrain. If I want to hurt an enemy but lack the proper firepower to kill them, usually like when the AI just get infantry, I'll hide half a dozen explorers under an army of my own (if I have one, which I usually do entering the IA) and go on a pillaging spree. It takes a little getting used to managing them properly so that they all make it back under the army at the end of their movement, and you might lose a few the first time around, but after some practice you'll be able to cut an efficient 3-wide path of destruction wherever your army goes.

Second to that, you can send them up to eight squares into enemy territory on the first turn of war and pillage a vital resource or luxury. So what if the enemy gets to him and destroys him, its only 20 shields, and you've likely tied up an enemy unit for a turn or two in the process

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Hmm, the explorer pillaging idea will work - but why pillage terrain around enemy cities that you are planning on conquering anyway? The one use for pillaging during war is to cut roads so enemies cannot get to stuff you have just taken quite as quickly. I have found in general pillaging resources is just not that effective - if it is nearby you will take it anyway when you take the nearby enemy city, and when you hit stuff further in the AI quickly reroads it anyway, large empires often have multiple sources of a resource, and even when I have thought I have gotten every instance of a particular resource through diligent effort the next turn I will use a spy and find they have just purchased what they needed from someone else anyhow.

As far as weakening an enemy civ thru general pillaging, I have found one trick that works - if your objective is to take a limited number of cities, and you can spare an army for it, either landing an army on the opposite side of the country where you are attacking via the sea or through a nation with which you have ROP is a good idea. The army with its free pillage can wander about far in the rear pillaging stuff you are not planning on taking at this stage of the game. The AI will not often attack a full-health army of strong units, especially if you are really pounding them elsewhere. After 10 turns, a tank army will have pillaged 30 squares, thus severely weakening the enemy's remaining territory.

 

[ThePrussian]

I don't bother pillaging. Slows me down. If I loose some of my troops in fighting through enemy territory and I've destroyed all the roads, rails and bridges behind me, it means my advance gets stalled waiting for reinforcements. In other words they get time to conscript and/or train up new troops and mass them to counter-attack. Last thing I need is my line of retreat cut off.

When I wage war, I wage war like it would be IRL. Only a mad general or a brave one, cuts himself off from a quick and effective retreat.

Now, if they push me back because of that, then yes, I am going to pillage.

My good defenses and mobile group in my territory can take care of any troops the enemy sends to my cities.

Not that it matters, a Panzer Army is a hard hitting beast.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Well, mostly agreed.

Sometimes I don't play for keeps though, esp in the late game on harder difficulty levels when the AI has 21 pop cities bristling with air defense, arty and mech inf and instant-flip culture. In that case, even a strong army of normal infantry is usually still safe from attacks, esp if you provide more juicy targets for the AI to distract themselves with, like unguarded cities in your backfield.

Anyways I'm not saying I use the explorer pillaging in every game, I'm just saying its fun and can be at least a little useful, esp under a slower moving army like infantry. It can be a decent way to prevent a rival civ from competing in a space race victory. And btw why are we talking about this under a thread called 'stealth fighters?'

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

"And btw why are we talking about this under a thread called 'stealth fighters?'"

Looks like my bad. I made us switch when I brought up the subject of "most useless unit".

Back to the subject of useful late-game fighters, I have replaced the stealth fighter with a unit I call the "advanced fighter", actually an F-35 JSF. Stats are slightly better than the Jet Fighter, AND it is stealthy, which means it survives better when bombing cities heavily defended by modern AA. It can do all the things a normal Jet Fighter does, plus smart bomb. It is of course more expensive.

 

[TheOverseer714]

The regular stealth fighter has longer recon range. That's about all it is good for.

 

[capnvonbaron]

I have replaced the stealth fighter with a unit I call the "advanced fighter", actually an F-35 JSF. Stats are slightly better than the Jet Fighter, AND it is stealthy, which means it survives better when bombing cities heavily defended by modern AA. It can do all the things a normal Jet Fighter does, plus smart bomb. It is of course more expensive.

Got something against the F-22? But anyways yes that sounds like a useful modification. I think thats even possible to do without much work, no?