Steam - love or hate?

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Indeed a typical machine may have 30 to 50 processes running in the background, I'm familiar. But how many of those background processes bottleneck my access to other applications that I might like to startup? This is the key point: Steam causes users to not be able to play when they want to under the premise that auto-updating when the application thinks it needs to is a "service" to users. Running in the background does not make something malware. Running in the background and interfering with other processes the user seeks to turn on/off does make it malware.
Steam should not be interfering with any other processes. As well, various stuff like Java and Flash like to update automatically, indeed Windows 7 (I'm on my laptop) just tried to get me to restart my computer entirely so it could finish this update.
The auto-updates process does lead to corruption. Reread this thread, several fellows have already explained this point.
I don't see anywhere in this thread where someone said that happens. And if it does, it seems this is a problem with Civ5 more so, TF2 for example gets updated sometimes on a or nearly a daily basis yet I have not had to reinstall it since I installed it on October 13th, 2007.

Whether or not you think Valve has or has not "revoked access to anyone without a pretty convincing reason" is irrelevant and misses the point completely. Owning a computer game should not require me to agree to "access" to a third parties network as a precondition to be able to play my game. When I buy it, I should own it PERIOD. Full Stop.
What you think you should own and what you actually do are two different things as has been said.

The Steam model deprives users of ownership by virtue of preventing their games from working if the user does not have a valid account on Steam and agree to allow the app to network to Steam when the app deems it necessary.
Yes, this is the rather obvious outcome of a program that requires your games be attached to accounts.

Tried Dragon Age: Origions? At least on the XBOX360, the game disconnects you from some of the DLC (not sure how much) if you don't have an internet connection for the game at all times. That isn't cool (the DLC is also really overpriced for how crappy/mediocre it turned out to be, what a waste of money).


No I do not think that accidental damage or becoming worn out would ever be considered as reasonable infringements on rights of fair use, and I do not think the game company would ship a new one. But without coming into my property and taking away that hard copy, they also can not deprive me of my use of it. Steam can do that if they chose at any time, even though you may own a hard copy of Civ5, because the game is Steam compulsory, you are subject to their EULA.
Unless the game's DRM has limited installs or requires online activation to a server which they could just as easily shut down (whereas Steam has unlimited installs and has a LOT of incentive not never shut their servers off).

Again, you miss the fundamental point. Only having it interfere sometimes, not during every attempted usage is not acceptable. When you buy a game, you have the right to expect it to run whenever you want it to, and not be required to be interrupted by auto-update operations spontaneously occuring.
I've installed non-Steam games that didn't work or had some bug at the end. Sometimes a patch fixed this, sometimes it was a problem with my own computer.

Steam is an unprecedented infringement on end users, and it really quite amazes me how far they have managed to go in penetrating the market. However, I have confidence that this reprieve from the basic principles of the fair market place cannot last forever. Eventually Steam will face suits for these infringements, which admittedly, because they remain without precedent have yet to be tried and clearly defined in the way that is necessary for the sorts of arguments I'm making to be definitive. Valve has pushed the envelope quite far, which has certainly been bold, and they have also shown a remarkable capacity to tap into the ethos of the market segments they serve to agree to the impositions and perceive them to be 'services' and conveniences. But their basic business model has tied mechanisms of depriving users of fair use subtley together with what are potrayed as services, a sleight-of-hand which has so far worked. It cannot work forever.
You might want to sue every developer who has not fixed a bug in their games as well. NVIDIA had a driver update earlier this year that bugged out and friend 1000s of graphic cards, they fixed that immediately, not sure what they did about the cards that got fried though as I didn't follow up on the story. Sony had a PS3 update that bricked a bunch of PS3s at one point too.

Haven't heard the same of Steam doing that on any mass scale.
 
There are plenty of alternative digital distributors from whom one can acquire scores of games "that are always up to date" that do not require malware on their machines. Such alternative digital distributors (e.g., Matrix and Gamersgate) allow me to "download a new game in an hour and try it out whenever I want, and often get old games for cheap via sales." By virtue of this, I can change computers and reinstall "all the games I wanted without keeping track of a physical library." With the exception of providing a dedicated MP server, the alternative distributors I am aware of provide exactly the same services you describe from Steam, but without requiring me to install malware on my machine.
Steam games usually download a lot faster for me than GamersGate games. Whose shortcuts I then add to Steam anyways :p


@PrinceScamp: obviously your definition of what constitutes malware and my definition differ.
My definition is what I found from several sites' (including but not limited to wikipedia) definitions of malware. I'm not sure what you are basing yours off of.

Irrelevant. I should not have to agree to a user account where the provider reserves the right to cancel my account simply to buy and use a computer game, unless access to a network is clearly a requisite aspect of said game. Such is not the case with an SP turn-based strategy game like Civ.
Then you should stop buying games. And don't even think about playing an MMORPG.

As for the network, they are supposed to work in offline mode as you very well know. Yes, sometimes this goes wrong and it isn't perfect, we've been over this.

Misses the point. Despite the fact that you may have a CD in your hands, because of how Steam requires the online account to make that game run, you do not own a game you buy on Steam. You paid a one-time rental fee that also requires you to network to their site to make the game run.
You do not own a game without Steam either. Its not very different (except for making a Steam account, but you need the same thing for Blizzard's games now too with their new version of battle.net).

Also, as you point out, irrelevant. Who cares if I can "back them up" if they will not run unless I network to Steam?
People who want to cut down the reinstall process probably care. As well as anyone who wisely keeps good back ups of everything (which is something people, including myself, are generally bad at).

And when Steam decides to stop providing service for a particular game, or when Steam is acquired or goes belly up, what then? Most likely you Steam users will be out of Steam at that point.
This could happen with GamersGate or any other digital retailer too. VALVe, at the very least, is a private company (afaik it has no shares). There are plenty of non-steam games where this is a risk too (mmorpgs being a good example, recent examples being APB, Tabula Rasa, etc). Even Starcraft 2 is so integrated into battle.net that without it the game won't run. Same with ubisoft's new DRM that always requires you to be in contact with their servers with NO option for offline. It is MUCH worse than Steam and I and many other people I talk with refuse to use it.

You can try to play your Steamized version of System Shock II, meanwhile I will still be able to insert my CD, fiddle with the emulation settings to get the game to run on a more modern OS, and enjoy my fair rights of use for the game I paid for.
Meanwhile I could have System Shock II downlaoded, instaleld and be playing probably within an hour or two and never have a problem again unless the game itself screws up (or my computer does).

Perhaps you can turn it off, and perhaps it even works. But eventually you will be required to network again in order to get the game to run, no? What does it allow you to play before it requires you to revalidate? 10 days? 30 days?
I have never had it ask for revalidation, even when I have not run it in MONTHS as I already explained about last August (in which case a non-Steam purchase, Mass Effect 2, demanded I authenticate it, while Steam was happily running without being connected to the net for two months or more). My laptop also always logs into Steam just fine even if I am not and have not been on the net in ages with it.

Irrespective of whether it can be turned off right now, the fact that it will once again require me to network to Steam in the future to keep the game running is the salient aspect of infringed fair rights of use.
I've heard of people running offline mode in Steam for months at a time, even years. So having to reconnect is not always the case.

And as I've said many times to you (and others before) yeah Steam could improve the offline mode a bit.

As for the witch thing, it really was not intended in any way to be derogatory and I guess wasn't a great analogy. Whatever. We don't have to keep using it.
 
Steam should not be interfering with any other processes. As well, various stuff like Java and Flash like to update automatically, indeed Windows 7 (I'm on my laptop) just tried to get me to restart my computer entirely so it could finish this update.

Java, Flash, and OS like Windows 7 are all applications which are intrinsically involved in networking and thus vulnerable to various forms of hacking and corruption, not to mention, unexpected conflicts with other applications. All of which are legitimate bases for such applications to impose on a user periodically, as necessary to auto-update.

This is not equivalent to Steam requiring me to maintain a Steam account and to periodically network to that account (every time you play by default) as a pre-condition to play a game that does not intrinsically ivolve networking and are not likely to be targets for hacking, corruption, or conflicts with other applications. You are arguing that apples are equivalent to oranges here my friend.

What you think you should own and what you actually do are two different things as has been said.

Eh? If I pay for a piece of intellectual property such as a DVD, a CD, a game, or a book, I SHOULD own it. Indeed, it is a basic fundamental principle of the free market that such a purchaser must own it, a principle which Steams preconditions to use the games they distribute fundamentally breaches by preventing the user from being assured of predictable, perennial owernship of the product they purchased through requirements to network to their validation system.

Yes, this is the rather obvious outcome of a program that requires your games be attached to accounts.

Tried Dragon Age: Origions? At least on the XBOX360, the game disconnects you from some of the DLC (not sure how much) if you don't have an internet connection for the game at all times. That isn't cool (the DLC is also really overpriced for how crappy/mediocre it turned out to be, what a waste of money).

Civ is not a console game. I'm not sure the relevance of customary terms of use in that model to discussing the Civ example?

Requiring networked accounts for games whose use does not intrinsically depend on networked accounts is indeed the fundamental breach of fair use IMO.

Unless the game's DRM has limited installs or requires online activation to a server which they could just as easily shut down (whereas Steam has unlimited installs and has a LOT of incentive not never shut their servers off).

I believe computer gaming should be rid of _all_ DRM of any kind. I do not see being accepting of Steam as a "less bad" form of DRM as being a a good first step in that eventual outcome. Valve's "incentive" to never shut off their servers could well prove irrelevant if they are acquired or go belly up. On the other hand, if Firaxis or 2K cease to exist, I will still be able to play Civ4. Why? Because Civ4 was distributed in a fair and reasonable way: by purchasing a piece of media that then required me to use a serial activation key to make the code on it run.

You might want to sue every developer who has not fixed a bug in their games as well. NVIDIA had a driver update earlier this year that bugged out and friend 1000s of graphic cards, they fixed that immediately, not sure what they did about the cards that got fried though as I didn't follow up on the story. Sony had a PS3 update that bricked a bunch of PS3s at one point too.

I have no desire to sue anyone, though as I've tried to explain, I do anticipate that eventually, someone is going to want to sue Valve, and/or their clients (e.g., 2K) for the infringed rights of fair use which it seems obvious to me Steam imposes on users.

I personally avoided that hassle by simply not buying the game.
 
Definition of malware

mal·ware (mlwâr)
n.
Malicious computer software that interferes with normal computer functions or sends personal data about the user to unauthorized parties over the Internet.

Requiring its use when its use was not an intrinsic requirement of what the user sought through purchase and installation (e.g., playing Civ5) is in my estimation malicious. Interfering with the game running is interfering with normal computer functions. The rest is under an "or" clause though I wouldn't be surprised if that applies also.
 
For more information on the reasons to oppose any Digital Restriction Management systems, such as those involved in Steam or the even more restrictive ones, I encourage everyone to have a gander at the Defective By Design initiative.

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/

Here is another interesting story about what a failure DRM proved to be with Spore, and how it indeed backfired, causing the game to suffer even worse piracy.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spore-drm-piracy-tech-security-cx_ag_mji_0912spore.html

How do you measure the failure of the copy protections that software companies place on their media products? In the case of Electronic Arts' highly-anticipated game "Spore," just count the pirates.

As of Thursday afternoon, "Spore" had been illegally downloaded on file-sharing networks using BitTorrent peer-to-peer transfer 171,402 times since Sept. 1, according to Big Champagne, a peer-to-peer research firm. That's hardly a record: a popular game often hits those kinds of six-figure piracy numbers, says Big Champagne Chief Executive Eric Garland.

But not usually so quickly. In just the 24-hour period between Wednesday and Thursday, illegal downloaders snagged more than 35,000 copies, and, as of Thursday evening, that rate of downloads was still accelerating. "The numbers are extraordinary," Garland says. "This is a very high level of torrent activity even for an immensely popular game title." . . .

"PC games are massively pirated because you can pirate them," says Brad Wardell, chief executive of Plymouth, Mich.-based gaming company Stardock. Wardell argues that the driver for piracy is user-friendliness--not price. Instead of digital locks, Stardock requires users to use unique serial numbers which it monitors, in conjunction with IP addresses.

"Our focus is on getting people who would buy our software to buy it," Wardell says, rather than trying to strong-arm people unlikely to pay for the products into become paying customers.

ADDIT: from a consumer psychology perspective, the fact that DRM seems to cause more harm than good to the maker's bottom line comes as no surprise to me

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/03/75-percent-customer-problems-caused-by-drm.ars

Musicload: 75% of customer service problems caused by DRM
By Ken Fisher | Last updated March 18, 2007 6:39 PM
Deutsche Telekom's Musicload, one of the largest online music stores in Europe, has come out strongly against DRM on account of its effects on the marketplace and its customers, according to German-language Heise Online.

Musicload said in a letter distributed last week that customers are having consistent problems with DRM, so much so that 3 out of 4 customer service calls are ultimately the result of the frustrations that come with DRM. In a business where the major music labels expect to be paid well for their source material, the costs of supporting DRM are borne entirely by the music retailers. If the labels' love affair with DRM is hurting the companies trying to make a go at selling music online, something is horribly wrong.
 
I don't know american law, maybe it has no customer security regulations, but in Europe, such situation won't stand. Come on it's crazy ... few remarks to what you stated:

1) Sorry, but responsibility of the product is always on the seller. If you buy a refrigerator and it doesn't work, you don't use your guarantee, which is something completely different, but you point out that product you received is against the agreement you made. The sellers need to solve your problem and it is their business how they will handle that with the producer. Mjamie14 legally bought the game, he has the right to get what he bought.

2) You wrote it is not Steam selling the software but the RTW using Steam tools. It's wrong again. As far you pay your money to Valve, they are the seller. BTW: why do you think they were so unhappy to not get paid? They should be cool with that if this was RTW to not receive the money, not them. Sorry, but it is obvious that Stem gets the money, Steam is the seller and it is their responsibility to satisfy the final customer.

3) Mjamie14 did the best thing he could, no product = no payment, especially if all other methods to make the sale agreement to be in force failed. What Steam done, was then something against the law and a good taste. Blocking all other legally purchased games is simply a theft. On place of Mjamie14, I would report this fact to police, as a theft and demand to give my property back.
Yes, they stole his property rights. I could imagine, they blocked only the mentioned title, but all?
Besides... again if Steam is not a seller, how they dared to cancel legal sales agreements between Mjamie14 and other game publishers, huh?

I didn't have problems with Steam so far as I didn't use it yet. So far I also didn't have any opinion about Valve and Steam platform, but this situation just changed my perception 180 degrees.

This is my take on the original post. Steam was the seller, the contract of sale is with Steam. The need to fix the issue with their customer. Also the theft of other paid for and non contended games should not be defended.

Good luck to those that have had no problem with Steam...but take the blinkers off when others are commenting about legit problems. That's the problem with most of the fanboy gamer magazines...they are all techno clued up and basically stuff everyone else.

I hate the whole online activation thing as much as I hate pirates. I have never pirated a game. I paid $120 for Total War : Empires...spent hours installing and activating it with steam..then suffered such crap internet performance for the next 2-3 months that I was basically not able to play it. I have still not pirated a game and would not for economic reasons but now that I have a paid for copy I would seriously have to consider a cracked copy to avoid all this BS.

BTW some of the issues with Steam have to do with the way they designed and present themselves through their interface...for instance the default setting for updates should not be automatic but a prompt when you start or even end a game. The default setting for online/offline mode should be offline once the game is activated. I have no problem with a prompt for you to make choice when I start the game.

I have actually changed settings to offline mode a few times and it seemed to be ignored. I have had some good experiences with Steam, but bad "almost stop gaming altogether" experiences as well. For me it is PC games or nothing. Consoles don't have the depth I seek from games. So when I stop PC gaming the gaming industry loses my $3000 a year.
 
Eh? If I pay for a piece of intellectual property such as a DVD, a CD, a game, or a book, I SHOULD own it. Indeed, it is a basic fundamental principle of the free market that such a purchaser must own it, a principle which Steams preconditions to use the games they distribute fundamentally breaches by preventing the user from being assured of predictable, perennial owernship of the product they purchased through requirements to network to their validation system.
You pay for the license to play the game, which has been stated many times in this thread. That is how it works, you do not own the game. I don't see how I can make this fact any clearer. And I'm not even referring to Steam there.



Civ is not a console game. I'm not sure the relevance of customary terms of use in that model to discussing the Civ example?
Dragon Age is also a PC game, however I never lost my connection or unplugged my computer while playing it and didn't test it, whereas my roommate's X-Box was unplugged a number of times so the cord could be used elsewhere before and during when someone was playing Dragon Age. Afaik its the same on the PC too.

I believe computer gaming should be rid of _all_ DRM of any kind. I do not see being accepting of Steam as a "less bad" form of DRM as being a a good first step in that eventual outcome. Valve's "incentive" to never shut off their servers could well prove irrelevant if they are acquired or go belly up. On the other hand, if Firaxis or 2K cease to exist, I will still be able to play Civ4. Why? Because Civ4 was distributed in a fair and reasonable way: by purchasing a piece of media that then required me to use a serial activation key to make the code on it run.
Serial keys are DRM, Civ4 Complete does, however, lack any DRM. However this is not the norm for games.

Definition of malware

Requiring its use when its use was not an intrinsic requirement of what the user sought through purchase and installation (e.g., playing Civ5) is in my estimation malicious. Interfering with the game running is interfering with normal computer functions. The rest is under an "or" clause though I wouldn't be surprised if that applies also.
Steam is sending the data to an authorized party (by accepting the EULA you accept VALVe as an authorized party) and is not interfering with normal computer functions by design. You start and log into Steam and then start the game. That is how it is supposed to and usually does work, occaisionally yes it breaks, but it is not supposed to and is not designed to interfere with playing the game or any other normal computer function.

See also the second definiton on that same page:
malware (mlwâr)
Software that is written and distributed for malicious purposes, such as impairing or destroying computer systems. Computer viruses are malware.

It certainly doesn't stop me or the hundreds of thousands of people playing games on Steam right now. (Concurrent Steam Users: 1,457,532). If it was malware, it would be preventing so many people from playing games everyone would have stopped using it years ago.

So when I stop PC gaming the gaming industry loses my $3000 a year.
You spend $3000 a year on games?!
 
You pay for the license to play the game, which has been stated many times in this thread. That is how it works, you do not own the game. I don't see how I can make this fact any clearer. And I'm not even referring to Steam there.

If you think I'm suggesting by "owning the game" that a purchaser has the right to do with it whatever they want you are incorrect. I realize that a user has limited rights of distribution and transcription. Laws prohibiting plagiarism, and copyright infringement are of course necessary.

But pointing out that purchasers only purchase the right to play and or mod for personal use of the code (as well as other sundry uses) not for rights to copy and redistribute, does not address the central point that Steam interferes with users ability and right to play the game by requiring a non-essential and extraneous networking arrangement.

Serial activation keys are DRM? Perhaps technically they strive toward a similar goal: limiting use to the purchaser and presenting an obstacle to duplication and redistribution. But in my expeirence the term is not generally used to refer to that form of security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management#Technologies

I'd be interested if you can source something referring to activation serial keys as an example of "DRM."

Steam is sending the data to an authorized party (by accepting the EULA you accept VALVe as an authorized party) and is not interfering with normal computer functions by design.

Oh yes, I understand that the user has "agreed" to Valve as an authorized party. Technically, the agreement is authorized. I'm not arguing that Valve and other DRM firms do not have the lawyers to position their practices so that they appear to be legal.

I'm suggesting that the very idea of forcing a user to agree to allow a third party to require networking is an infringement on fair use. I realize that as of yet, legal interpretations based on precedent allow them to get away with this. But eventually, a case will come their way which brings the legal interpretation back into the favor of the consumer. Which is why I will not buy games that use Steam, Ubisoft games, etc.

It certainly doesn't stop me or the hundreds of thousands of people playing games on Steam right now. (Concurrent Steam Users: 1,457,532). If it was malware, it would be preventing so many people from playing games everyone would have stopped using it years ago.

Illogical and ill-founded. Tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of personal computers globally have malware of various natures on them, and their users keep running those machines for years, often unaware that basic functions of their machine are being interfered with, and frequently interpreting the lags, crashes, glitches, etc., that result from the malware as a 'normal part of the mysterious world of computers.' Malware does not equate with "OS crashing, hard-disk erasing cataclysm" although obviously some of the most malicious forms that those nutjob hackers dream up might try to accomplish such cataclysmic effects. Malware is simply malicious code which_interferes_ with normal computer use. From this standpoint, AOL, Skype, Norton, and various other widespread applications that people "agree" to put on their machines are malware. The difference is when one patron of a product requires a consumer to deal with another patron of a client, whose business practice involves requiring the user to install and use a piece of code that prevents use of the purchased product if the 3rd party application is not used, i.e., if you do not maintain your Steam account.

You say "you have heard of people" not updating or logging on for years; well I have heard of people experience auto-updates at alarmingly high frequencies.

Interfering will not necesarily lead all users to desist with patronizing the service provider that is the source of the malware, let alone if they are even able to make the connection between the interference in their use of their machine and the application that was installed that is causing it.
 
Eh? If I pay for a piece of intellectual property such as a DVD, a CD, a game, or a book, I SHOULD own it. Indeed, it is a basic fundamental principle of the free market that such a purchaser must own it, a principle which Steams preconditions to use the games they distribute fundamentally breaches by preventing the user from being assured of predictable, perennial owernship of the product they purchased through requirements to network to their validation system.

Where do I start. First off, when you pay for a piece of intellectual property, you only own it if you are given that by the publisher. Im all for consumer rights and getting what you paid for, but in this case you explicitly pay for a product that states that it is merely a digital copy.

Requiring networked accounts for games whose use does not intrinsically depend on networked accounts is indeed the fundamental breach of fair use IMO.
First off, if we talk in the context of Civ 5, then yes, it does have networking features which require an account. Steamworks is integrated into Civ 5 which be default makes it necessary.
Second, if you are referring to the fair use doctorine, then you have no idea what that means. Requiring an internet connection for a single-player game doesn't relate at all to fair use.


I believe computer gaming should be rid of _all_ DRM of any kind. I do not see being accepting of Steam as a "less bad" form of DRM as being a a good first step in that eventual outcome. Valve's "incentive" to never shut off their servers could well prove irrelevant if they are acquired or go belly up. On the other hand, if Firaxis or 2K cease to exist, I will still be able to play Civ4. Why? Because Civ4 was distributed in a fair and reasonable way: by purchasing a piece of media that then required me to use a serial activation key to make the code on it run.

So you're saying Civ 4 was distributed with fair DRM? Serial Keys are a form of DRM. They have always been and always will be. A fully-DRM free game is a difficult proposition to pull off, especially since it allows fairly simple casual piracy.


I have no desire to sue anyone, though as I've tried to explain, I do anticipate that eventually, someone is going to want to sue Valve, and/or their clients (e.g., 2K) for the infringed rights of fair use which it seems obvious to me Steam imposes on users.
And they will get thrown out of court so fast there will be Cherenkov radiation coming off of them.

I personally avoided that hassle by simply not buying the game.
Which is the sensible thing. You actually voted with your dollar instead of being a hot-air balloon.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the Fair Use act/laws refers to copyrights and the use of copyrighted material rather than playing video games.

Fair use law is effectively the flip side of copyright law.

I'd be very interested if either of you can provide a citation in which some author besides yourself refers to activation serial key as an example of "DRM."
 
Correct. Fair use refers to copyright law, specifically the allowance of a person to use a limited amount of a copyrighted work for non-commercial purposes.

Fair use law is effectively the flip side of copyright law.

I'd be very interested if either of you can provide a citation in which some author besides yourself refers to activation serial key as an example of "DRM."

Don't quote wiki for laws. They tend to be misleading.

The definition of DRM varies and a serial key is in pretty much every way analogous to DRM, which therefore makes it a form. DRM is a way to enforce the license agreement on a piece of software which a serial key does as well.
 
The fact that many game producers seemed to have done fine for years without it would seem to be indirect evidence that it is unnecessary.

I don't think this is a "fact" at all. What is a fact is that, several years ago, PC sales declined precipitously and a lot of publishers began to focus much more on consoles because of the lower level of piracy there. Since then, PC game sales have had something of a recovery. You can postulate various complex theories for why that happened, but I think the simplest explanation is pretty much on target.
 
There are actually many reasons as to why PC gaming declined and is now rebounding, but yes, increase in piracy, and its perceived effect on sales has been one of the reasons.
 
From my perspective a serial key is not "pretty much in every way analagous to DRM." My reading of what people who are "opposed to DRM" (both activists and consumer rights groups, and general consumer reactions) are referring to when they use the term is that I am not alone in not regarding serial keys as "DRM."

Agreed, serial keys are technically a form of DRM. But then so is a store where you buy a game CD, so is the box it is in, and so is the shrink-wrap on the box. All of those factors present obstacles to illegitimate use or duplication of the product.

Don't quote wiki for laws. They tend to be misleading.

A link to some other source explaining how restrictions to access a distributors website as a condition to be able to play a game is not an example of the spirit of the "fair use law" would be more edifying that a simple dismissal of the point based on Wiki being "misleading" for any particular topic such as law.
 
I don't think this is a "fact" at all. What is a fact is that, several years ago, PC sales declined precipitously and a lot of publishers began to focus much more on consoles because of the lower level of piracy there. Since then, PC game sales have had something of a recovery. You can postulate various complex theories for why that happened, but I think the simplest explanation is pretty much on target.

It is a fact that Paradox and Matrix games are in business, and have been in business throughout the period when piracy putatively plummeted pc gaming into the pits. What is also a fact is that Matrix uses no DRM (other than serial keys, which I dispute as interpretation as "DRM") and Paradox generally does not use DRM. I have never played a Paradox game that used DRM.
 
From my perspective a serial key is not "pretty much in every way analagous to DRM." My reading of what people who are "opposed to DRM" (both activists and consumer rights groups, and general consumer reactions) are referring to when they use the term is that I am not alone in not regarding serial keys as "DRM."

Agreed, serial keys are technically a form of DRM. But then so is a store where you buy a game CD, so is the box it is in, and so is the shrink-wrap on the box. All of those factors present obstacles to illegitimate use or duplication of the product.
Your perspective is irrelevant. It is what it is: a way to enforce the license agreement on a piece of software.

A store or shrink wrap, the examples you brought up, are not DRM because they do nothing to enforce your acceptance of the terms of the license agreement. At the time of purchase you have not even seen the license agreement (which I do think is something that should be changed)


A link to some other source explaining how restrictions to access a distributors website as a condition to be able to play a game is not an example of the spirit of the "fair use law" would be more edifying that a simple dismissal of the point based on Wiki being "misleading" for any particular topic such as law.
US Code Title 17 Section 107:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

Straight from the horse's mouth.

It is a fact that Paradox and Matrix games are in business, and have been in business throughout the period when piracy putatively plummeted pc gaming into the pits. What is also a fact is that Matrix uses no DRM (other than serial keys, which I dispute as interpretation as "DRM") and Paradox generally does not use DRM. I have never played a Paradox game that used DRM.

There are more developers that dissolved or went out of business because of the decline in sales. You also cannot say that Paradox is an entirely successful company. They make money, but generally its not all that much. Certainly no big hits. In fact, its a lot easier to be Paradox as there are much smaller risks. They do not have to worry about a game they spent $200 million making not selling very well or being heavily pirated. As long as enough people buy it to make a modest profit, the company will survive.
 
It is a fact that Paradox and Matrix games are in business, and have been in business throughout the period when piracy putatively plummeted pc gaming into the pits. What is also a fact is that Matrix uses no DRM (other than serial keys, which I dispute as interpretation as "DRM") and Paradox generally does not use DRM. I have never played a Paradox game that used DRM.

I think the reasons why piracy might be more of a problem for more mass-market games than for relatively niche games are pretty clear.

I also don't at all understand the distinction between "serial keys" and "DRM". These do pretty much the same thing, the question is just what most people prefer. Currently, most people seem to prefer Steam over the hassle of dealing with keys.
 
Whining, arguing, trolling, bans, mods slapping other mods, strange economic theories, car analogies... what do you get the thread that has everything?

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Then might I suggest you join us in boycotting all games that use it? Forever?

If a significant fraction of us adopt this "zero-tolerance" for DRM stance, it will eventually die.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to show quite clearly that there are plenty of folks who, even if they might not like the annoyances of DRM, do not have either the discipline, the insight, or the restraint to vote with their wallets.

It does feel like a losing game, doesn`t it.

I have complained again and again on various forums and put down in detail where Steam decieves. I have even given people hard evidence that Steam`s Offline mode is NOT offline and how if you forcefully disconnect from the net, Steam will eventually force you back online to play your game. But no one reallly listens. No one does the tests I tell them to. They sit in their magical fantasy world that Steam is perfect, brainwashed by it, then tell US we are haters for pointing out legitimate concerns.

So controlled are the Steam Lovers that Steam does not even bother to address the concerns of people who put across reasons why it is unethical (in my view) and unfair to primarily offline people, people who don`t use or have internet and people who want an OPTION.

But all we can do is keep whining. Even the most stubborn of the stubborn in Steam will one day respond and, if Steam become an all controlling monopoly, then hopefully, the governments of the West may notice and reign in Steam`s power.
 
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