Steam - love or hate?

[Maniacal]

I don't see how it could possibly be that different. Even if it is, Firaxis could have just added an if statement denying access to multiplayer features if steam isn't installed. It's that easy.

No, no it isn't.

Civilization 5 has Steamworks integrated into it for various networking and stuff which was used for the multiplayer part of Civ5.

The multiplayer portion of Civ5 is as built into the game as the singleplayer stuff is, you'd have to spend some serious time disabling the multiplayer and ripping stuff out of the game and then putting it back together in order to remove Steamworks.

This is impractical for many reasons, it will cost Firaxis a lot of money in wages and time paying its employees to do this, the game won't have multiplayer, and I don't even know how they are going to put out this version of Civ5 for sale. 2K would never allow this, the game has already sold many, many copies, and having a non-multiplayer version that doesn't have Steam probably isn't going to sell well enough to justify the effort and expense. It isn't going to happen.

If you still magically think it can happen then go ahead and write a letter to Firaxis and ask them if it could please be done (and do post a screenshot/scan of the letter before you send it and the reply when you get one).

Some people are willing to pay an arm and a leg for really fast connections. When you can get fast internet for less than $50/month then maybe the US will be ready.

Still hasn't stopped Steam being popular, and that is an issue you need to take up with your ISPs (which for the most part seem pretty crappy, and Canadian ones aren't a hell of a lot better either)).

For civ4, I simply need to go to C:\Civilization IV (since that's where I installed it). The equivalent path for civ5 is C:\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v. One of these involves a lot more clicking than the other. Granted, in Windows 7 you can pin these to the taskbar, but on an older OS this can be annoying.

Having to click three more times is not a good enough reason to make it a major problem.

Last time I checked, a game that requires steam is tied to an account unless you use it only as a really expensive paperweight.

An expensive paperweight that takes up extremely little space and only exists digitally. Or are you referring to the physical DVD case, copy and whatever else is in there? Then it isn't really that different from non-Steam games.

As far as I'm concerned, EULAs are unethical and are only legal because some activist judges decided to hand power to our corporate overlords. A real contract requires negotiation, not just "click agree or we get your money and you get nothing".

Then take it up with the courts.

I don't believe it.

As I've said before, whether you believe it or not doesn't change the reality of the situation. You can plug your ears and yell "la la la la" all you want, but the earth is still going to orbit the sun and Civ5 is still going to require Steam. Its obvious you are simply being stubborn and refusing to listen to anything that disagrees with your opinions, so goodluck with that.

We would prefer not to be required to use Steam for singleplayer computer games in which game play does not involve networking.

Civ5 has multiplayer and is the game in question, this isn't about Skyrim.

It is clear some of you guys really like Steam, and that is good for you. But that is not a good reason for the other third to half of us who would prefer not to have to use it to use it. Neither are any of the other arguments that have been presented in this thread for why Civ5 requires Steam.

I never said that I think it should be mandatory for every game, that is a conclusion you have created yourself. I've shown why it is liked by publishers/developers and why they are likely to use it despite a minority not liking it enough to not purchase the game.

I have no doubt that Skyrim will use Steam, since Bethesda is using it for Fallout 3 and other games they are publishing (but didn't develop themselves) like Fallout: new Vegas and the upcoming Brink.

 

[blind biker]

Steamworks is not the only means of digital distribution.

This will never enter their thick skulls. It's hopeless.


Hopeless I tell you

Moderator Action: Inappropriate.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Anthropoid]

Basically, you're paranoid.

Basically, your stereotyping me and dismissing me by portraying me as being mentally deficient. Basically, that is an infraction of the site rules.

Moderator Action: Please report a post if you have a problem with it, accusing others of breaking rules is not helpful to the discussion.

You're on of those people that refuses to enter your CC info on a website because they can steal it aren't you?

Wrong. I do engage in a great deal of digital commerce. Including some 20 or 25 games purchased via digital download. I do not use Steam.

You're arguing a losing point.

Yes, me and 25-30% of the prospective buyers of Skyrim who will not buy it if it requires Steam (plus the other ~25% who say they would prefer not to have to use Steam) are arguing a losing point. That 45% who will buy the game whether it requires Steam or not however! They are the winners!

Steam sales account for a tremendous number of PC game sales.

How is this an argument against other options of distribution? A game can be available for sale on Steam and also available via other forms of distribution too? Prima facie, MORE forms of distribution would seem to be preferable.

You seem to think that I am "opposed" to Steam, as in: "Steam must be stopped!" or "Steam must not be used to distribute any games" or something of that sort?

No. You've read far more into my attitudes than is warranted by what I've written. I believe games should be made available via various distributors, not only one. Steam should be but one of many options for acquring games.

Why do you think brick & mortar stores carry so few PC games anymore? Because physical copies don't sell.

From a publisher perspective - physical copies cost a lot of money. Game boxes, DVD's, DVD cases, paper manuals, and store cuts contribute to a large cost. It's a lot cheaper to make the game available electronically. I don't have raw numbers, but I'm willing to bet that they can sell half as many copies and still make more money had they released physical copies.

I do hear some guys arguing "against Steam" by expressing a preference for "physical copies only." I personally see no reason not to make a game available by as many different forms of distribution as possible. If small developers can manage the costs of physical plus digital distribution, then I really don't see what would be the problem for big names like 2K or Bethesda.

From a consumer standpoint, Steam works well.

Data to back up that claim?

The surveys I'm linking to and describing indicate that perhaps 45% of consumers regard Steam as "no problem" if not more positively than that.

But the data also indicate that the other 55% or so would prefer not to have to use Steam.

Naturally, I don't expect Valve to be promoting this sort of data, and so such data may have never existed before. But there it is! Free for all to participate in and free for all to view!

 

[rkay316]

I think its a rip that we have to use steam to play this game, I miss the old days when you could buy a game and own the rights to it with steam you buy the game then can not transfer it when your done with it like I was with this trash version of civ after only playing it for 20 hours.

 

[Senethro]

Data to back up that claim?

The surveys I'm linking to and describing indicate that perhaps 45% of consumers regard Steam as "no problem" if not more positively than that.

But the data also indicate that the other 55% or so would prefer not to have to use Steam.

Naturally, I don't expect Valve to be promoting this sort of data, and so such data may have never existed before. But there it is! Free for all to participate in and free for all to view!

Why not make polls about consumer satisfaction with Steam in places other than Anti-Steam threads attracting the attention of people who have never used Steam?

I think its a rip that we have to use steam to play this game, I miss the old days when you could buy a game and own the rights to it with steam you buy the game then can not transfer it when your done with it like I was with this trash version of civ after only playing it for 20 hours.

Its because you people from the "old days" didn't challenge the EULAs and imagined you'd always be safe that companies have decided to try and enforce them. In many places, you just thought you owned them even back then.

 

[Moss]

Moderator Action: Okay, one last warning. Please don't flame and/or troll other posters. Also, any comparison between a comment one makes and whether or not they are acting like or working for Steam/Valve (or any other company) is uncalled for. Finally, if you think someone is breaking the rules, report the post. If you are not a moderator, don't act like one and don't accuse others of breaking the rules. Stay on topic or this thread will be closed.

 

[Anthropoid]

Why not make polls about consumer satisfaction with Steam in places other than Anti-Steam threads attracting the attention of people who have never used Steam?

Distribute the link to the survey where ever you want Senethro.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KGQSLKP

It is not about "consumer satisfaction with Steam" for people who have never used Steam.

The intent of that one is to assess how many prospective buyers of Skyrim would prefer not to have to use Steam.

I'm sure there are a few "prospective buyers" of Skyrim in other places that you might help reach if you'd share the link in other places, such as the Steam forums or where ever it is you are thinking about.

 

[Maniacal]

I think its a rip that we have to use steam to play this game, I miss the old days when you could buy a game and own the rights to it with steam you buy the game then can not transfer it when your done with it like I was with this trash version of civ after only playing it for 20 hours.

You never owned the rights, you still get the same license you did before, the only difference is Steam can enforce the EULAs. And almost nobody has challenged EULAs in court (there was one case last year and the challenge won the case, but then lost the appeal and I'm not sure what happened after that)).

Why not make polls about consumer satisfaction with Steam in places other than Anti-Steam threads attracting the attention of people who have never used Steam?

Yeah just putting this out there but using basic statistics knowledge, none of those polls represents anything other than the views of the people who voted in them. They cannot realistically and ethically be used to represent any kind of population that did not vote in them. So please don't.

 

[rkay316]

Why not make polls about consumer satisfaction with Steam in places other than Anti-Steam threads attracting the attention of people who have never used Steam?



Its because you people from the "old days" didn't challenge the EULAs and imagined you'd always be safe that companies have decided to try and enforce them. In many places, you just thought you owned them even back then.

how do you know what we did in the old days? and by the way we had a store around here where you could sell your old pc games when you were done with them, with steam you cant do that you install to one computer and your done if you get board of the game your out 50 bucks. Bottom line think before you post next time.

Moderator Action: As a new member, please familiarize yourself with the rules. Your post is fine except for your last line. No need to accuse others of not thinking before they post. Argue the points a person makes, don't get personal.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[rkay316]

You never owned the rights, you still get the same license you did before, the only difference is Steam can enforce the EULAs. And almost nobody has challenged EULAs in court (there was one case last year and the challenge won the case, but then lost the appeal and I'm not sure what happened after that)).



Yeah just putting this out there but using basic statistics knowledge, none of those polls represents anything other than the views of the people who voted in them. They cannot realistically and ethically be used to represent any kind of population that did not vote in them. So please don't.

Again see my post above this one I could still sell the game when I was done with it. Are you guys really not able to figure this out I would think if you could use a computer you could understand the concept of what im talking about.

Moderator Action: See my warning in your above post.

 

[Senethro]

Distribute the link to the survey where ever you want Senethro.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KGQSLKP

It is not about "consumer satisfaction with Steam" for people who have never used Steam.

Yet you tried to use them in lieu of such data anyway in your previous post.

The intent of that one is to assess how many prospective buyers of Skyrim would prefer not to have to use Steam.

I'm sure there are a few "prospective buyers" of Skyrim in other places that you might help reach if you'd share the link in other places, such as the Steam forums or where ever it is you are thinking about.

I will not because even your poll questions/options are flawed or leading, in addition to where you are conducting them.

Reposting from the bottom of the previous page:

I don't believe DRM is necessary, so why would I suggest alternative solutions?

So you're an idealist that campaigns for the campaigning without any expectation of changing anything?

How many AAA titles this past year have been DRM-less? How many have not included some kind of online registration/authentication?

If you're not going to be practical and suggest a realistic outcome Bethesda might adopt, why bother at all?

 

[Maniacal]

how do you know what we did in the old days?

Because that was like 4 years ago and we're more than a little bit older than that?

and by the way we had a store around here where you could sell your old pc games when you were done with them,

Lucky, I've never seen a used PC game ever. At least not in a chain gaming store, they don't accept used PC games. Thrift stores on the other hand still do, I've gotten a few classics (which I don't play) from there.

you install to one computer

You can install it to as many computers as you want actually.

and your done if you get board of the game your out 50 bucks.

Thats a risk of buying any games, and there is always a demo or other ways to research the game you are looking at getting.

 

[Senethro]

Again see my post above this one I could still sell the game when I was done with it. Are you guys really not able to figure this out I would think if you could use a computer you could understand the concept of what im talking about.

You sold them despite the license to use them frequently stating explicitly that you could not. Now I don't really care about reselling because I rarely buy for more than half of release price, but if you did care you should have spoken up before software companies had accumulated over a decade of precedent.

 

[rkay316]

You sold them despite the license to use them frequently stating explicitly that you could not. Now I don't really care about reselling because I rarely buy for more than half of release price, but if you did care you should have spoken up before software companies had accumulated over a decade of precedent.

again your not grapshing what im saying, I was able to resell past games I cannot resell steam games.

 

[Anthropoid]

So you're an idealist that campaigns for the campaigning without any expectation of changing anything?

How many AAA titles this past year have been DRM-less? How many have not included some kind of online registration/authentication?

Why don't you tell me?

If you're not going to be practical and suggest a realistic outcome Bethesda might adopt, why bother at all?

As I said, Paradox, Impulse, Ageod, Matrix, etc. = no DRM. Thus, no DRM would seem to be "practical."

This is laughable, 30% from a thread with a leading title intended to draw particular people towards it as well as the link having been pimped in other such forums.

Are you asserting there is a sampling bias? Because 45% of respondents saying they will buy it whether it requires Steam or not certainly does not suggest such a bias.

They will make their decision based on sales of F:NV unless you come up with strong evidence and a campaign with achievable goals.

The thing that sales data do not reveal: potential sales lost. Surveys like these are useful for gaining insights into that phenomenon.

Yes, because thats how you phrased the poll! More telling are the options you didn't include.

Again, despite this vague and flimy assertion that the construct of the instrument is invalid because it promotes sampling bias, the results run counter to such a claim. If the survey is biased to lead responses, then why did 45% of respondents nonetheless respond in a "pro-Steam" manner?

Whether those are the exact distributions of people who actually dislike being required to use Steam or who will forego buying a game because it requires Steam is not the point. The point is that, there is a chunk of us who belong in one or both of those two categories. Belittle and dismiss the evidence all you want, it doesn't really matter what you think; you're just one person, apparently in a minority, and you don't work for a game publisher.

The goal is to pique enough curiosity that maybe some of these publishers start to think about this for themselves, and do their own market research to see if these sorts of numbers from the survey are really going to play out.

ADDIT:

So you're an idealist that campaigns for the campaigning without any expectation of changing anything?

No DRM is the change I'm proposing.

 

[Senethro]

again your not grapshing what im saying, I was able to resell past games I cannot resell steam games.

So? You weren't supposed to, you didn't legally challenge for the right to resell, so now that they have ways to stop you reselling, you're less likely to be able to do anything about it.

 

[rkay316]

So? You weren't supposed to, you didn't legally challenge for the right to resell, so now that they have ways to stop you reselling, you're less likely to be able to do anything about it.

wow im done arguing with you guys, the two of you are dumb as a bag of rocks.

Moderator Action: In the future, please heed moderator warnings Don't flame or troll others.

 

[Moss]

Moderator Action: Okay, one last warning. Please don't flame and/or troll other posters. Also, any comparison between a comment one makes and whether or not they are acting like or working for Steam/Valve (or any other company) is uncalled for. Finally, if you think someone is breaking the rules, report the post. If you are not a moderator, don't act like one and don't accuse others of breaking the rules. Stay on topic or this thread will be closed.

Since this warning was not followed very well. This thread is getting closed.

There's a slight chance I may repoen it later, in the meantime, please do not start any other threads regarding liking or disliking Steam.