Still no late game uses for iron and horses

[Winston]

@Gunnergoz

There are some good mods that do something to make iron more useful - the best IMO is Industrial Steel & Skyscapers - I wish someone would merge this mod with Petroleum (edit: I meant useful oil mod) and add on racetracks for horses. That would become a standard mod for me.
I wish Firaxis would do something official (even a small DLC) but you're probably right about them leaving it as is.

 

[Yzman]

If you consider WW2 to be in the modern era, horses were still historically important in that war, since most of the Western Axis combatants (especially Germany) used them extensively as logistical transport haulers. They just weren't used as cavalry combat units so much any longer - the numbers hauling wagons exceeded those carrying soldiers in battle. This was also true in WW1. So it is only in the future era that horses become more of a luxury resource. As for iron, since it is a necessary component for the making of steel, it is valuable into the future era as a base resource. I think it will probably take a modder to show best how the modern evolution of these assets has progressed in game terms, however, since Firaxis is never going to do so.

Neither are strategic resources that are still fought over today. That is the issue. There is no reason to continue to have them be important throughout the whole game.

Civ is a very general overview. When stuff has become so common and is no longer strategic in nature, it should no longer be required as a strategic resource. I believe the game shows this well. Plus, as others have already said, we still do get bonuses from them, mostly from the tile. So it is just purely removing the STRATEGIC element of them, which should be expected.

 

[SamBC]

@Gunnergoz

There are some good mods that do something to make iron more useful - the best IMO is Industrial Steel & Skyscapers - I wish someone would merge this mod with Petroleum and add on racetracks for horses. That would become a standard mod for me.
I wish Firaxis would do something official (even a small DLC) but you're probably right about them leaving it as is.

Assuming you mean the ones I did, those were mostly there as "proof-of-concept" mods, showing what's possible, and using some of the new stuff in BNW. It would be very nice if someone took the concept and did something better and more wide ranging with it.

 

[Winston]

Just because people haven't gone to war over iron in the last 50 years doesn't mean it's unimportant economically. And yes, extraction techniques have improved and recycling too but pretty much every vehicle and large construction uses steel.
But my view is from a game point of view - I don't like seeing the resources sit unused at the top of the screen for half the game when they could make it relevant to the later game too.

 

[Winston]

Hi SamBC, I was indeed referring to your mod

You had some good ideas in that mod.

 

[Babri]

But my view is from a game point of view - I don't like seeing the resources sit unused at the top of the screen for half the game when they could make it relevant to the later game too.

This. After all we even have big uses for faith in late game, then why not for other things like early strategic resources (horses & iron) being used up in modern eras. IMO for every source there should be a drain somewhere. We have this concept everywhere in ciV like science,food,gold, production, faith & so on.

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[Calouste]

Just because people haven't gone to war over iron in the last 50 years doesn't mean it's unimportant economically. And yes, extraction techniques have improved and recycling too but pretty much every vehicle and large construction uses steel.
But my view is from a game point of view - I don't like seeing the resources sit unused at the top of the screen for half the game when they could make it relevant to the later game too.

The discussion was not about whether iron was economically important or not, no one argues that it isn't. The point is that iron is no longer strategically important because it is abundant.

 

[les berceaux]

They could both be used for corporation resources.

Maybe, having a horse resource gives 15% more gold or whatever that the corporation in that city provides. Having iron allows a certain building or something.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Personally, I'd like a system wherein strategic resources can be consumed by either buildings *or* military units, throughout the entire game, thus forcing players to often make difficult decisions between building civilian improvements or building huge armies!

Aussie.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Personally, I'd like a system wherein strategic resources can be consumed by either buildings *or* military units, throughout the entire game, thus forcing players to often make difficult decisions between building civilian improvements or building huge armies!

Yes, and it would be great to have actual choice. For example, horses are consumed by early-available Circus (it could give additional happiness for nearby Elephants to keep this part of balance), so there's a choice between horse units and the building. And later, after horse units become obsolete, game could introduce another building (i.e. Tourism or Money producing race track), for players to have choice.

The only problem I see with this system is quite large set of buildings needed in this case.

 

[Winston]

@ Calouste
I take your point that iron is 'abundant' nowadays, nevertheless many countries need to import steel from India and elsewhere and modern countries have a voracious appetite for steel.

I tend to think about the early iron resources as iron ore that is near the surface so it's easy to extract for medieval smelting etc so maybe they could have another iron resource appear with the dynamite tech to represent the deeper mines, they could also have recycling centres generate iron (maybe a pig iron smelter too could generate iron?). This would model the increasing availability over time.

 

[Schalke 04]

Since we have horsemeat in almost everything in EU nowadays it seems, perhaps we could let horses be converted to food during the late game.

Good thinking (even when it was a joke). However I would make it a luxury ressource in the late game (industrial/modern era). Some people (especially with a better income) hold horses as a hobby. And all these little girls that go crazy, when they think about horses and ponys

Maybe a new tech (or new attribute in an existing tech), that allows for pet usage...

This would allow for some new bonus ressources as well. For example dogs. In the early game they give a production bonus (as sledge dogs) or food (as hunting dogs), and later with the "discovery" of pet usage they give happiness as well.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Good thinking (even when it was a joke). However I would make it a luxury ressource in the late game (industrial/modern era). Some people (especially with a better income) hold horses as a hobby. And all these little girls that go crazy, when they think about horses and ponys

Maybe a new tech (or new attribute in an existing tech), that allows for pet usage...

This would allow for some new bonus ressources as well. For example dogs. In the early game they give a production bonus (as sledge dogs) or food (as hunting dogs), and later with the "discovery" of pet usage they give happiness as well.

I was thinking in the same line about horses. A ranch or something alike that consumes 3 or 6 horses providing a happiness bonus and maybe in addition a slight tourism bonus. Actually there are better choices for buildings which can be included. But I don't like having so much horses in the late game.

But for the idea of inclusion of dogs, hmm I don't know... I dont like the idea of including pets for the late game. But on the other hand dogs were important to humans in history...

 

[God of Kings]

...and there are some who eat dogs (such as China for much of its history (and to a lesser extent, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Polynesia, the Sioux and the Cheyenne, the Aztecs, and ancient Rome))

Wu, Sejong, Oda, Kamehameha, Montezuma, and Augustus ate dogs.

 

[andrewlt]

I disagree with horses. The obsolescence reflects their modern usage very well. The economic impact of a region having horses is very low compared to another region not having it. Resources are supposed to reflect something special. Horse racing is such a minor sport compared to soccer, American football, baseball, basketball, hockey, cricket, tennis, golf and so on and so on. E-sports might even be bigger than horse racing nowadays.

MasterCard Worldwide Insights
MasterCard Global Destination Cities Index

Top 20 Global Destination Cities in 2013 (number of visitors)
1 Bangkok
15.98 mil
2 London
15.96 mil
3 Paris
13.92 mil
4 Singapore
11.75 mil
5 New York
11.52 mil
6 Istanbul
10.37 mil
7 Dubai
9.89 mil
8 Kuala Lumpur
9.20 mil
9 Hong Kong
8.72 mil
10 Barcelona
8.41 mil
11 Seoul
8.19 mil
12 Milan
6.83 mil
13 Rome
6.71 mil
14 Shanghai
6.50 mil
15 Amsterdam
6.35 mil
16 Tokyo
5.80 mil
17 Vienna
5.37 mil
18 Taipei
5.19 mil
19 Riyadh
5.05 mil
20 Los Angeles
4.84 mil

MasterCard Worldwide Insights
MasterCard Global Destination Cities Index ($ spent)
1 New York
$18.6 bil
2 London
$16.3 bil
3 Paris
$14.6 bil
4 Bangkok
$14.3 bil
5 Singapore
$13.5 bil
6 Tokyo
$12.7 bil
7 Seoul
$10.8 bil
8 Dubai
$10.4 bil
9 Sydney
$10.4 bil
10 Barcelona
$8.9 bil
11 Istanbul
$8.6 bil
12 Taipei
$8.1 bil
13 Kuala Lumpur
$7.8 bil
14 Los Angeles
$7.8 bil
15 Shanghai
$6.9 bil
16 Milan
$6.6 bil
17 Vancouver
$6.5 bil
18 Rome
$6.4 bil
19 Amsterdam
$6.3 bil
20 Miami
$6.3 b

I think the game does it right. The modern world economy is not dependent on these strategic resources any longer. The top cities for tourism above aren't there because they have strategic or luxury resources nearby. Shopping plays a very huge part in it. So do shows, nightlife, museums, restaurants and all sorts of stuff that have nothing to do with tile yields.

 

[ptoss1]

I disagree with horses. The obsolescence reflects their modern usage very well. The economic impact of a region having horses is very low compared to another region not having it. Resources are supposed to reflect something special. Horse racing is such a minor sport compared to soccer, American football, baseball, basketball, hockey, cricket, tennis, golf and so on and so on. E-sports might even be bigger than horse racing nowadays.

I think the game does it right. The modern world economy is not dependent on these strategic resources any longer. The top cities for tourism above aren't there because they have strategic or luxury resources nearby. Shopping plays a very huge part in it. So do shows, nightlife, museums, restaurants and all sorts of stuff that have nothing to do with tile yields.

I'm so psyched for tourism just from reading this.
I'd say Vancouver doesn't belong there though. I live there and it's not particularly interesting.

 

[Winston]

@Andrewlt

I'm not saying horses should have a major impact but I do want something to use the resource in the late game - Civ 4 introduced corporations to increase the importance of resources so Firaxis are aware of the issue.
I'm not saying horses should provide a tourism boost either as 'tourism' seems to be very much focused on the high brow and the intellectual in this game rather than a day at the beach (or horse races) - tourism also doesn't generate income either (a primary goal of real tourism). 'Tourism' in Civ 5 is more about cultural/ideological narrative and seeking to impose that worldview on others and I don't think horse race tracks should generate 'tourism' in that sense.
All I really want is a race track building that consumes the horse resource to generate a commerce/happiness bonus - which is useful but not directly related to winning the game.
BTW horse racing is a pretty huge sport in it's own right especially when you factor in all the associated gambling - edit: a quick wiki check indicates horse racing has a world-wide market of 115bn dollars - not bad. I wonder how much extra the other equestrian sports would add to the market value?

 

[phos_hilaron]

I think we could sum it up. The majority of people it seems want there to be a late game addition (either through a patch or DLC or a new expansion) for two resources Horses and Iron.

Iron seems to be connected to buildings in the Industrial + eras. This would require new buildings.
There were additional ideas (which I thought were good) at having building connected to production for Iron (beyond forge) that represented modern production (like assembly plant).

I personally thought the skyscraper building and ideas were fantastic.

There was tons of disagreement on how to use horses.

Personally, I think after you've reached the modern era they should drop out of the "strategic resource" option, and move to the "bonus resources" (even though I think you should still be able to trade bonus resources in CiV).

This would help with our nomenclature.

They would provide a food bonus, a production bonus (when improved with pastures), and gold bonus to represent domestication.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Perhaps....
Ironworks National Wonder gives +1 production per unused iron
Circus Maximus National Wonder gives +1 per unused horse (or maybe +1 gold)

Althpugh consuming buildings would be better (forge&circus)

 

[Seek]

Perhaps....
Ironworks National Wonder gives +1 production per unused iron
Circus Maximus National Wonder gives +1 per unused horse (or maybe +1 gold)

Althpugh consuming buildings would be better (forge&circus)

That's a great idea!