Stonehenge often the only viable approach

[Adjuvant]

I haven't played deity in the last several days. I need my issue of "Masochist Monthly" to really get immersed. That said, immortal shouldn't be as "easy" as it is.

 

[ense7en]

Seems to me it's tough getting to found a religion on Immortal+.

My first G & K game [on Emperor] i rolled Spain and had the Great Barrier Reef nearby for my second city. I picked One with Nature Pantheon and and proceeded to be the first to get a Religion founded and the game was on cruise control from them on.

Second game i went Immortal and went Carthage and couldn't even get a religion founded (no wonders or natural wonders for me), and the game hasn't gone well. I am going to lose eventually as i took me forever to build up my military and now i'm slowly beating on my neighbor Attila across the sea while the other civs spam two billion cities on every island getting more and more powerful.

Third game i went Emperor, Byzantium and went Stonehenge and GL and was able to get a religion founded, and so far seems okay, though it's still early.

 

[Miravlix]

Buy/develop the best production hexes in city 2 and allocate to as much production without starving; maybe even starve a little without losing pop just to squeeze more production. Or just try to boost GPT and buy a shrine in city 2. Also try for philosophy so you can get a temple in the capital. Although Immortal is bad cause you know the troops will be coming soon

I started another thread on shrine faith strategy for non early religious bonus civs.

I got my pantheon, have 247 fatih (+4 turn) 2 cities with shrines, bought the second citiy shrine. Build up enough of an army to beat Cat's DoW. Two religions has been founded.

I can't beat the Immortal AI in the religion race, but I might be able to at least not be last and if I get any bonuses like good gold start, religious CS, natural wonder, I would be beating them.

Liberty opener, for a Greater Prophet when I close it, don't think opening other policies than liberty is an option.

 

[Miravlix]

If your second city is taking 120 turns to build a shrine, you have other problems... like siting a city really poorly for an early production spam/city spam strategy. And you're going to struggle to win on Immortal with that poor a second city regardless of your intended strategy.

Ethiopia and the Celts would like to have a word with you as far as alternative strategies; properly played, they should easily nab a religion even on Immortal.

Uhm, no I've never ever going to have a problem winning.

I need an army of six units to win on any level, so winning is never an issue.

It's purely about fun factor.

 

[CaptainKapow]

Yea I don't have much trouble on immortal either. I think the hardest part is founding a pantheon before a religion is enhanced. Once you have a pantheon you can actively build faith buildings to catch up and make sure you get a religion.

I just did a game where I enhanced a religion (Spain + Mt. Sinai) well before everyone got pantheons, and they still all got their pantheons. I don't think enhancing a religion blocks that. (or at least not anymore).

 

[BobDole]

Founding a religion is an absolute nightmare on higher difficulties. Currently doing an Immortal game as England (Archipelago, of course) and despite building Stonehenge (which required me going for it as soon as the game started, since the AI has a huge leg up on Immortal when it comes to the early game) I still was third in founding a religion, and the first two religions were enhanced before I even founded mine, and that's without any religious-focused civs in the game. It just sucks that the AI starts with free techs, letting them put down shrines almost immediately, which lets them pick pantheons before you so they can get more faith (assuming they pick pantheons that grant extra faith) and so on. I kind of hope Firaxis adjusts something, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Calouste]

I saw we were discussing early wonders like Temple of Artemis, and whether it has a use now, that religion can do the same. Besides the obvious benefit of stacking growth bonuses, I'll leave that discussion to it's own thread.

But I have found, that on higher levels the Stonehenge is very often the only way you can get a chance at a religion. First you must prioritise a shrine very early, then hold tight as the pantheons are gobbled up.

After that, you so very often find yourself with one or two cities, and one or two shrines. And no way you will accumulate 300 faith in time.

And here getting Stonehenge seems to be the only choice, and so getting beaten to it kind of takes out part of the game, I for one prioritise.

You can get lucky and find a natural wonder, I have had that happen a few times, but it will mostly not happen. Finding a religious CS and having the gold to fund it, haven't been a scenario I have run into yet.

You could maybe make a cultural leap in order to fill Liberty and get a Great Prophet this way. But my experience says that full Liberty comes after the religions have been founded.

It just seems to me as if there's only one viable way, which forces you into not only researching plantation when you don't need it, and it's a long research at that time. Go for Writing instead and Stonehenge will likely be lost. But also have to accept that your cap will be wonder building when you have better things to do.

Despite what the description for the Temple of Artemis says, it actually gives 10% extra food, not just 10% growth. It's a massive difference.

 

[Adjuvant]

I think...

Civs with the early faith benefits are "supposed" to get the early religions. "Fighting" to found with other civs is "going against the grain" and you're kinda lucky sometimes to get it. I played an immortal game this morning as Korea and I didn't fight it; I blasted all the science I could from the beginning, as a vanilla game. I netted two results:
1. I was ahead in science sooner than any immortal G&K game prior.
2. I never warred with Persia, my "ICS" warmonger neighbor from whom I received follower beliefs.

I won by spaceship victory. I feel I played Korea "to a T".

Had I pissed about messing with shrines, prophets, missionaries, et. al. I likely would have gotten myself badly crushed between my other two neighbors and Persia, and I likely wouldn't have had the science progression.

So, if you're in the mood for it, when the newness wears off, play a game without caring about religion. You can still win.

 

[headcase]

Logically, it's not possible to "guarantee" you will get a religion since some civs are inevitably not going to get one. Cool reading all the strategies though, and so far I've found the way they implemented religion feels right

(Well, aside from not getting follower bonuses unless a religion is majority in a city, which means a city with a good mix of religions gets no bonuses, but that a minor point).

 

[Slvynn]

Only civ that should really worry about religion and try to do air jumps to get it is Byzantium.
But there many ways for them to get it.

 

[Dtekkar]

I've had the most luck with:
Scout->scout->shrine->monument->worker->X (generally archer spam)

As a religious start. Double scout syncs up with the pottery tech perfectly. It also gives you the best chance at a +8 faith first visit religious CS bonus, and usually about 2-3 more ruins to pop for more rolls at a faith super-ruin. It's a risky starting strategy because the late monument/worker hurts a lot, but you have good chances at an archer upgrade or free tech (mmm free writing/calendar).

I have a feeling you've just had some bad luck. Lady luck can be a *bleep* sometimes, but figure out what you can do better because nobodies' perfect. Plans are worthless, but planning is invaluable. It is a good idea to think of religion as a strategic option. Some starts are weak and you are better off skipping religion altogether and focusing on science or land grabs... Gotta roll with the punches. Though it's really hard not to give the old reroll to a Byzantium game where ya don't get a religion

 

[Miravlix]

To hell with luck.

It's a STRATEGY game. I should be able to use strategy to win, not luck.

 

[Colonel Travis]

To hell with luck.

It's a STRATEGY game. I should be able to use strategy to win, not luck.

If this were true, you'd have one map and one map only that never changed, every ruin would give you the same reward in the same order, every CS and AI Civ would be fixed and they'd start in the same spots, same with Barbarians, you wouldn't need Scouts, there would be one difficulty level, etc. You might as well just stick with chess.

 

[Dtekkar]

To hell with luck.

It's a STRATEGY game. I should be able to use strategy to win, not luck.

Agreed, randomization is false depth for the most part. There isn't enough strategy in the religion stuff for me either. Maybe 2 pantheon picks, add a few more pantheons, and a balancing pass on the less viable ones would go a long way.

 

[Barghaest]

Ask any military strategist... luck is a major factor that can turn any battle plan upside down.

 

[Adjuvant]

I just did a game where I enhanced a religion (Spain + Mt. Sinai) well before everyone got pantheons, and they still all got their pantheons. I don't think enhancing a religion blocks that. (or at least not anymore).

Err.

Enhancing a religion limits the "number of available pantheons" to the "number of available religions". I.E. 6 religions possible, 6 pantheons founded, someone enhances, no more pantheons can be founded. So if someone enhances when 6 religions are possible, but only 2 pantheons have been founded, 4 more pantheons can be founded.

Exception: If someone enhances and all pantheon slots are closed, one can, with a great prophet, found a religion if a religion slot is left, and be able to pick the pantheon choice, even if they didn't have a pantheon. I've done it.

 

[Colonel Travis]

Exception: If someone enhances and all pantheon slots are closed, one can, with a great prophet, found a religion if a religion slot is left, and be able to pick the pantheon choice, even if they didn't have a pantheon. I've done it.

Confused, sorry. Are you saying that every pantheon choice comes back up for you and you get to pick from the entire lot?

 

[Adjuvant]

Confused, sorry. Are you saying that every pantheon choice comes back up for you and you get to pick from the entire lot?

no. The question isn't about the dwindling choices of pantheons. The question is about "being allowed at all to found a pantheon once a religion has been enhanced.".

Once a religion has been enhanced, there can only be pantheons founded to the "total number" of religions "still available". However, if/when you pop a great prophet before "the last religion allowed is founded" and "if you don't have a pantheon" and you opt to found religion with this prophet, you get to choose a pantheon benefit from the dwindled list of available pantheons in addition to your founder and follower benefits.

In the period before a religion is enhanced any civ that earns the faith qualifier can have a pantheon.

 

[omnishakira]

Who does stonehedge on higher level lol

You have to be lucky by having easy quest with reglious CS or a Faith heavy Natural wonder nearby or being Celt and have 3 square of woods next to your capital. Don't expect to have a religion 100% of the time even if you concentrate everything on it.

In my opinion you should ignore religion and if you're getting somehow lucky then you can start to concentrate on it. But at first, take for granted that you won't have any religious state

 

[mike678]

Who does stonehedge on higher level lol

You have to be lucky by having easy quest with reglious CS or a Faith heavy Natural wonder nearby or being Celt and have 3 square of woods next to your capital. Don't expect to have a religion 100% of the time even if you concentrate everything on it.

In my opinion you should ignore religion and if you're getting somehow lucky then you can start to concentrate on it. But at first, take for granted that you won't have any religion state

Not sure what you're talking about I've only missed Stonehenge 1 time so far on immortal and I've played at least 10 games where I built it and several more where I could have. Even on deity I'm sure the chance of getting it is higher then 50/50.