Swedishguy
Deity
You're right, it's an espionage trait masquerading as a strategic trait. I guess that's a difference.
AHHHHH!
Strategic Leader Trait
- Thread starter Silence101
- Start date
AHHHHH!
Silence101
King
What does 50% GG points or a free tactics promotion to gunpowder and melee units have to do with espionage? The goal is to build a trait that focuses on the art of strategy. Espionage... intel gathering is one aspect of strategy, but there's more to strategy than just espionage.
seasnake
Conquistador
I actually had this idea for strategic for my Xpack (still need to make better leader heads and diplomatic missions). Here's what I came up with
Strategic:
-20% cost espionage missions
Free flanking I promotion for mounted units, naval units
Double production of Airport, Stables, Int. Agency
Strategy, think people, like "Stratego." It involves espionage, but it involves troop movements and combat maneuvers.
Strategic:
-20% cost espionage missions
Free flanking I promotion for mounted units, naval units
Double production of Airport, Stables, Int. Agency
Strategy, think people, like "Stratego." It involves espionage, but it involves troop movements and combat maneuvers.
Okay, so it's great general points and not some other modifier (like giving great generals more experience when attached to units). Now it's cleared up.
Honestly, I would try to avoid using benefits that other traits currently possess...it just keeps it more unique, gives it more flavor that way.
Silence101
King
How would you mod the -20% espionage mission cost? That's not a bad idea.
I think the only trait modification that can be made for GG's in the XML is the GG points - sorry if I wasn't clear.
Not duplicating traits is a valid point... it's just that after awhile, you run out of unique ideas. Most of the trait mods that can be made in the XML are already being used by other traits.
Munch gave me an idea in the "critique new traits" thread that I might try playing around with regarding trade - I don't know if it will really effect the stratigic trait, but as I mentioned earlier, I've been modding the other traits as well - it might help make all my modded traits a bit more unique from each other across the board.
seasnake
Conquistador
I don't know, I've abandoned that part of my Xpack. Instead I'm sacking three leaders from the main list (Roosevelt, De Gaulle, Victoria) and adding six civs. Lincoln is now Industrious/Philosophical (I fused him and Roosevelt). The other six civs are: Pacific Islanders, Poland, Israel, Hattay, Kongo, Gran Colombia.
Anyway, if I look at the XML for espionage missions I'll see if there is a trait bonus slot. If there is, then you're off and running. If not, then it gets harder.
My big problem is I'm trying to create "espionage" missions that can only be carried out by diplomats. I have the artwork for the unit in place, but until I can do that I can't have my diplomats or "great diplomat," which is supposed to provide a new way to burn espionage points for trade advantages, improved relations, ending wars, etc.
Anyway, if I look at the XML for espionage missions I'll see if there is a trait bonus slot. If there is, then you're off and running. If not, then it gets harder.
My big problem is I'm trying to create "espionage" missions that can only be carried out by diplomats. I have the artwork for the unit in place, but until I can do that I can't have my diplomats or "great diplomat," which is supposed to provide a new way to burn espionage points for trade advantages, improved relations, ending wars, etc.
Silence101
King
That sounds like a cool mod - I think your modding skills are way beyond mine, though. I've never attempted anything that complicated.
seasnake
Conquistador
Yeah well, still a long way to go even if it's possible. I can reskin leaderheads alright, but until I can change the shapes in blender or something effectively I basically have Napoleon with a stache (Simon Bolivar). Long way to go, I won't put it out there until I figure it all out.
I didn't know if you were sticking in the current XML limitations or planning to create a new XML schema with the required code for interpreting new tags, etc.
There are a few abilities in the traits XML that were never implemented...I could have sworn there was a war weariness-affecting thing in there, along with a few other unused tags. However, as you say, the vast majority of "hard-coded" abilities are already granted.
I do complain about the double-production buildings, though...there are several buildings without double production bonuses right now, and you can move the bonuses around to make sense. I don't like trait ideas that have, say, double production on barracks when Aggressive already has double production on barracks. How does the game code handle that...will it give you +200% production or just +100%? But why bother with that case in the first place?
Silence101
King
Oh, now see, you're getting too advanced for me already. (You need a special program to compile schema, right?) Might be cool to learn someday though - the current XML's as they stand are somewhat limiting... or maybe I just have big ideas.
If there is a war weariness leader trait modifier, I'm pretty confident that it's not in the traitinfos XML. I haven't completely explored all the XML files though - could be in another one in the same manner that the building production trait modifiers are in the buildinginfos XML. Most everything in traitinfos is already being used by another leader trait in some capacity. (With the exception of the trade tag that Munch figured out how to use.)
I completely agree - that is kind of dumb. The leader traits should be as diversified as possible. With so many buildings in the game, there's really few excuses for doubling up production bonuses.
(EDIT: By the way, I did test the multiple production bonuses awhile back with the spiritual trait - the way the game defines production bonuses to temples is really odd, but it does appear to be cumulative. I believe that if you had two traits with the same building production bonus, a leader with both traits would get the cumulative total in the same manner.)
I was just unsure what you meant by the bonus. I get it now.
I could have sworn there were more unused tags in the traits XML...that's where it would be, though. I'll take another look at it later (working now, don't have access to my Civ4 computer).
It's interesting that the trait bonuses are cumulative, so that at least answers one of my questions, but given the limited amount of modding capacity we have, I still favor keeping it unique, even if the bonuses are cumulative.
seasnake
Conquistador
In your minimal mod, AL, I've changed Imperialistic to get double jails and customs houses, and that seems to help a lot. Also, GG can start golden ages in my game, which is a wonderful use of Imps extra great general.
I'm working with some ideas, and one of those ideas is extra double production buildings (the other is boosting the settler production bonus). There are other threads where I have posted more clear details on those ideas, and my support/distaste for them (I promise I won't hijack this thread!).
Silence101
King
Antilogic - this is a little off topic, but I thought I remembered hearing that in your mod you nerfed Praet's a bit? What did you do exactly?
I was thinking about giving Praet's a 7 combat value to balance them a bit better.
I was thinking about giving Praet's a 7 combat value to balance them a bit better.
Since you asked (and its your thread, so I don't feel bad about being off-topic)...here is the "play-test" version of the new Roman UU:
Roman Legion
Replaces Swordsman
7 Strength, 1 Movement
+10% city strength (attack and defense)
Can build roads and forts (@ 1/2 worker speed)
...so the combat strength is lowered to 7 in the field and 7.7 in cities. A slight offset to this is the ability to construct roads and forts like they actually did. Overall, it might not be too much of a nerf, but it definitely has a little more flavor than the flat extra strength bonus.
Silence101
King
I like how you added the historical aspect of building roads and forts, but honestly I don't think it's a feature that I'd use much... maybe building some roads, I guess. Does the AI use it well? I could picture the AI prioritizing Legion road construction over city defence during a war or something ridiculous like that. The bonus to city attacking and defense is an interesting idea - so you'd want to engage enemy Legions in the field if possible instead of staying in the city... although, the garrison promotion would counter; be enough of a reason to stay put.
EDIT: What about just giving Legions a combat 6 with a free City Raider and Garrison promotions along with the ability to build roads and forts?
EDIT II: Actually - scratch that idea. I don't like giving subsequently promoted melee and gunpowder units a free City Raider and Garrision promotion.
lutzj
The Last Thing You See
What about free Flanking/Drill promos, plus the obvious bonuses to Security Bureaus and Intel Agnencies?
Other ideas:
Cheap (insert civilian unit name here)
Increased GG emergence (but not nearly as good as Imp)
Better road movement
cheaper defensive buildings
The problem with Strategic is that it needs a stronger identity; it's very easy for this trait to sound like one of the other military traits. As a result, some kind of espionage bonus is a must, because no other trait has it and it applies to the idea of the trait
Other ideas:
Cheap (insert civilian unit name here)
Increased GG emergence (but not nearly as good as Imp)
Better road movement
cheaper defensive buildings
The problem with Strategic is that it needs a stronger identity; it's very easy for this trait to sound like one of the other military traits. As a result, some kind of espionage bonus is a must, because no other trait has it and it applies to the idea of the trait
Silence101
King
Keep in mind that I modded all of the other traits as well - I don't have that info with me right now, but some of your suggestions I implemented already - So we're close to being on the same page!
I modded walls to provide a small espionage defense bonus similar to security bureaus - I gave both of these buildings to Protective for production bonuses. I do agree with the Intel Agencies though - I gave Strategic a production bonus to this.
A production bonus to spies or scouts/explorers (I modded scouts and explorers with a free sentry promotion) is an intriguing idea... something I hadn't considered before. A production bonus to spies might be OP though, especially given the other espionage bonuses associated with the trait.
When I modded IMP, I took away the GG point bonus and gave it to STR at +50% instead of 100% - the 100% I thought was a bit too powerful given how beefed up the trait was already. (I modded GG's to be able to start golden ages as well, so it was a balancing issue.)
One of my initial ideas was to give the commando promotion to certain units for extra road movement in enemy territory. Later I changed it to a free morale promotion for added movement. I felt that both were way overpowered.
As for cheaper defensive buildings - do you mean improvements like forts? I don't really see a lot of value in that. If you mean buildings like castles and walls, while I don't think that's really out of flavor, I don't want to double up trait production bonuses to buildings. I mentioned PRO has a bonus to walls already and IMP has castles. Plus, I kind of agree with Antilogic that building production bonuses are used as more of a way to balance traits.
EDIT: As far as flank/drill promotions - I gave STR a free tactics promotion to melee and gun units (+30% withdrawal chance), and while I think it seems to balance ok from what I've played, I'm not completely satisfied with it. It doesn't really seem to match the flavor of the trait. A free Drill promotion was a possibility I thought of, but it just feels a bit underwhelming I guess. I was afraid Drill II might be OP, but I haven't tested it.
Honestly, the roads and forts are just something different. I'd figure that most players would use it as a pure combat unit, and occasionally build a road or two with them. And, as a fighting unit, they receive a slight nerf. Not extreme, but still enough that axes can beat them up unless you create Combat I/Shock legions intentionally to counter them.
I have tested the ability to build roads and forts, and you indeed can, but I'm not sure if the AI understands how to use the bonus because I haven't played a full epic game with my new rules yet. I just mod a little thing or two whenever I can, and because the rules keep changing, I can't really playtest effectively by myself at the moment. Probably not this weekend, but the next one, I'll release a beta version of the mod, and try and get some playtesting help online here.
Silence101
King
Honestly, the roads and forts are just something different. I'd figure that most players would use it as a pure combat unit, and occasionally build a road or two with them. And, as a fighting unit, they receive a slight nerf. Not extreme, but still enough that axes can beat them up unless you create Combat I/Shock legions intentionally to counter them.
I have tested the ability to build roads and forts, and you indeed can, but I'm not sure if the AI understands how to use the bonus because I haven't played a full epic game with my new rules yet. I just mod a little thing or two whenever I can, and because the rules keep changing, I can't really playtest effectively by myself at the moment. Probably not this weekend, but the next one, I'll release a beta version of the mod, and try and get some playtesting help online here.
What else does your mod do? Do you have a list of changes?
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