Strategy discussion

[AnotherPacifist]

Going for Confucianism and/or Taoism was my plan B for a while, i.e. if I missed Judaism. But I never managed to beat the Chinese to either. Was there a specific technique you used?

Stonehenge must be the most powerful early wonder hands down for winning early UHVs. The only thing we haven't used it for is generating great merchants.

 

[civ_king]

Stonehenge must be the most powerful early wonder hands down for winning early UHVs. The only thing we haven't used it for is generating great merchants.

Bingo

 

[Chiyochan]

I'm finding alot of strategy guides seem to be loony, i have to wonder if people are using a completely different AI than me, because it seems to me that every time i follow a strategy guide it produces some impossible situation, this time, following the greece guide, I'm confronted with every crummy city surrounding babylon with at least one archer, and it seems to expect me to contend with my simple phalanx, who at best gets 30% victory rate. I think I'll go rush egypt instead.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Some of these are not updated, while some count too much on luck, but there are some good ones.

 

[blizzrd]

I'm finding alot of strategy guides seem to be loony, i have to wonder if people are using a completely different AI than me, because it seems to me that every time i follow a strategy guide it produces some impossible situation, this time, following the greece guide, I'm confronted with every crummy city surrounding babylon with at least one archer, and it seems to expect me to contend with my simple phalanx, who at best gets 30% victory rate. I think I'll go rush egypt instead.

Hey, I wrote the Greek strategy guide (or at least a part of it). If you're going to take a pot shot, ("loony") I'm going to take a right of reply. I've regularly used the strategy that I penned (since perfected in the fastest UHV threads) to win a UHV with Greece in BC years, so I happen to think that this counts as a successful strategy.

You don't need to attack the "crummy" cities surrounding Babylon before you attack Babylon itself, with the exception of the barbarian city of Hattusas which you should definitely attack before Babylon.

Against barbarians (note NOT Independents) you get a few free attacks which are guaranteed to be wins. Hattusas is usually defended by at least two barbarian units (occasionally also a Chariot, although this often goes exploring and dies before you spawn). So be sure not to fight any battles against Barbarian Lions or Panthers or Bears before your Phalanxes reach Hattusas, then fight your battles against the defenders (which usually razes the size-1 city). You should score at least one promotion for each phalanx unit in this way and only take minor (if any) damage.

Once you have City Raider I promotions on each unit, declare war on Babylon and take the city. Only occasionally do the Babylonians have Asharitu Bowmen defending (it happens, but not that often, <10% in my many games played as Greece). You will have a tough time against Asharitu Bowmen, bad luck and reload a new start unless the RNG decides to smile on you. But otherwise, the Warriors defending Babylon should provide enough additional experience to promote your Phalanx units to get at least City Raider II promotions.

Then heal, and attack Shush to the east of Babylon which will only have an Archer and/or a Warrior defending it without either a significant cultural bonus or the benefit of hills. City Raider II Phalanxes should not lose this battle.

Only then should you think about picking a fight with the defenders in Tyre or Jerusalem or Nineveh (should the Babylonians have founded this city on the hill near the Copper, slightly to the NE of Babylon). Personally I now let these cities go for a little while longer and head into Egypt as the next target, before they can build or hire too many defenders or perhaps hook up their own Copper resource (which means Axemen defenders).

After taking Egypt apart, I have always had both of my Phalanx units with City Raider III promotions, sometimes even with a fourth promotion to boot. I have then never had any problems in picking off the cities in the Levant/Palestine at my leisure after this.

 

[Mxzs]

I think some of them are out of date; I know that the strategy I used to use on an Egyptian Monarch game no longer seems to work the way it used to. Research times seem to be longer, so that Construction is no longer a useful acquisition, and you have little margin for error in chasing a Great Artist.l

I don't know if anyone will find it useful, but here is a new guide for Egypt that I typed up recently. It is not much different from what is in the wiki already has up, but it is at least written with the latest version of RFC in mind:

Egypt is a terrific introduction to Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, and a good sandbox in which relatively unskilled players can practice and hone such techniques as Wonder chasing, specialist assigning, and tech beelining. It is not the best civilization to use if you are intent on conquering the world or even just on surviving into late eras of the game, but even in that regard it is a nice introduction to the mod, because it will teach you the perils of venturing too far outside of your civilization's area of expertise. Which in Egypt's case means kicking ass during the Ancient Era.

In this guide, I will concentrate on the Historical Victory conditions, as that is what Egypt is best at accomplishing. I will not offer turn-by-turn guidance. There are, in fact, a number of ways of skinning the Egyptian sacred cat, and I will only direct the reader's attention to what he or she should think about when tackling the UHV.

The Land
Egypt is born into and lives for most of the early game in splendid isolation. Locked into the narrow Nile valley, and separated from its neighbors by the Mediterranean and by a strong Independent city (Yerushalayim) to the northeast, it is unlikely to meet any of its neighbors until the Greeks spawn (turn 51). Even then, you will probably not meet anyone who poses an existential threat, or who you can profitably trade techs with, until Carthage spawns around turn 80. It is not unusual to play for the first one hundred turns with only Pericles as a correspondent, and you will find that you have remarkably little to say to him.

This is okay, because it means you won't have to worry about such military techs as Bronze Working, Hunting, or even Archery for a very long time, and can concentrate on securing the techs that will give you the necessary Wonders and cultural accomplishments.

The Nile comes with many advantages and disadvantages. It is agriculturally rich, but the same terrain that makes it possible to grow large cities will also ensure that they suffer from ill health. But there are many resources nearby that can alleviate unhealthiness, and which will help with research and wonder chasing.

To the north, associated with the delta, there are Fish and Wheat squares. To the east and southeast there is Marble, a Crab resource in the Red Sea, and (when you discover the requisite techs) Horses and Copper. To the south there is Stone and Gold. There is also a Dye resource near the delta, and an Incense resource in the southern deserts, but exploitation of these requires the distant Calendar tech, and the game can easily be won without ever developing them.

No single city can encompass all of these resources, so you will need to build at least two cities; depending on where you place them, and how your culture radiates, you might even need three cities. City placement though, should be dictated by your overall strategy. You should know going in how you intend to win the game, and move your initial Settler accordingly.

Planning Your Strategy
The UHV goals are:

1. Have 500 culture points by turn 84.
2. Build the Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, and Great Library by turn 134.
3. Have 5000 culture points by turn 152.

There is no trickery, and very little strategy, to meeting the first two UHV conditions. If you build two Wonders early enough, you can generate 500 culture points without looking back, and the two earliest Wonders you can shoot for (Stonehenge and Pyramids) are very quick to build thanks to the Stone resource. Pyramids is also one of the Wonders you are tasked with building, so it makes sense to try acquiring it early.

To build the Great Lighthouse you need a coastal city, and you must also have completed the short tech path Fishing – Sailing. To complete the Great Library you must complete the tech path Writing – Aesthetics – Literature. The latter will be expensive and require beelining, no matter what your overall strategy.

Your choice of strategy, then, will come down to how you intend to meet the third condition: getting 5000 culture points by turn 152.

There are three basic techniques you can use:

The first two involve getting a Great Artist, whose "great work" will give you 4000 points; if you get such a Great Person by the deadline, you are practically guaranteed victory, as you will have easily generated the other 1000 points by turn 152. To get a Great Artist, you must either hire artist specialists and pop a GA, or grab Music by the deadline and before any other civilization has researched it.

The third strategy is to generate culture points by quickly building a massive number of Wonders. There are enough Wonders early in the game that, if you secure them quickly enough, can generate 5000 points by turn 152 without the need to ever hire an artist.

These, then, are the strategies you can use to shape the overall game: spamming Wonders; beelining Music; or hiring specialists. I will discuss each in turn.

Wonder Spam
There are a lot of Wonders that can be secured early in the game, and most of them appear along the research path that you have to use anyway. Those research paths are:

Mysticism [Stonehenge] – Masonry [Pyramids; Great Lighthouse] – Polytheism [Parthenon; Temple of Artemis] – Priesthood [Oracle] – Writing (* but see the note below) - Aesthetics [Parthenon; Temple of Artemis] – Literature [Great Library, Leaning Tower]

Fishing – Sailing [Great Lighthouse; Maoi Statues]

In addition, Meditation (a cheap tech) will give you the ability to build Shwedagon Paya.

The research path Writing – Mathematics – Construction will lead you to Hanging Gardens, Great Wall, and Colosseum, but beware that there is little advantage to be found in it. The Chinese will beeline Mathematics and almost certainly build the Hanging Gardens while you are still pursuing your other, more immediately pressing research tasks. Construction will almost certainly become available to you too late for its two Wonders to materially affect your victory.

The means that as long as you stick to your research path, you will get techs that will let you build nine Wonders. Meditation can be popped with a Great Prophet (of which you will probably get at least one) for a tenth.

To spam Wonders, though, requires you to master the whip: you simply cannot build all of these fast enough to generate the requisite culture if you rely on mere hammer production. Egypt's Unique Power is to start with Slavery already in force. Use it.

Whipping, in turn, requires that you build a city with good food production, good hammer production, and the infrastructure that will let it grow and recover rapidly from your Pharaonic rapacity. This argues for a city near the northeast, placed where it can encompass the Wheat, Marble and Stone resources. A freshwater placement and relative dearth of floodplains will also shield it from the worst effects of the Nile; and with a granary it will be possible to recover from size 3 to size 6, or from size 4 to size 8, within only a few turns.

(I won't explain how to whip, except to offer general guidance. Whip as often as you can, substituting a regular building (a library, granary, barracks, etc.) if you won't be able to quickly whip a wonder. Use production overflows to build Warriors (who will help keep the disaffected populace in line, thanks to your also having Hereditary Monarchy in force). Don't whip below size 3, which is the size that will let you work your three resources in your capital. Change production to a Settler and whip it if there is nothing else you can produce. (But the city should be at happy population 6 or higher before you make such a substitution.) If all else fails, you can throttle back on production for a bit by hiring scientists in the library that you should have built.)

To maximize your whipping efficiency, you should make Pottery an early tech acquisition, even though it is not on your research path. Besides, cottaging tiles will offer incremental help to your research efforts.

Your second city will have to be a coastal city, likely placed on the Red Sea so that you can capture the seafood and copper resources. This city will be slower to develop, but if you found it early enough and nurture it, you should have few problems getting the Great Lighthouse.

The Mozart Gambit
A Great Artist lies on the other end of this strategy, but the necessary techs (Writing – Aesthetics – Literature – Mathematics – Music) are dauntingly expensive. If you are to get the Great Artist by the deadline, you will have to prioritize research. This argues for scientist specialists, which implies a Caste/Specialist economy.

The same location that is perfect for whipping Wonders is also perfect for a research city. Once you have Stonehenge (a necessary Wonder in all these strategies) in hand, you can hire multiple scientists to power your research toward Priesthood, which can confer the Aesthetics tech on you via the Oracle, and beyond. The body of science specialists will also likely provide you soon with a Great Scientist, whom you can use to give yourself Mathematics.

The rest of the game will be similar to the Wonder Spam: an early city on the Red Sea for the Great Lighthouse.

Ars Gratia Artis
Both of the above strategies require sharp timing and the ability to micromanage. The same is true (and maybe to an even greater extent) of the third strategy, which is to use artist specialists to pop a Great Artist. This one also requires some careful thought and pre-planning, but it's wonderfully satisfying when it all comes together.

To hire artists in a sufficient quantity, you must run Caste System in a resource-rich city, which again argues for the delta as a starting location. In this case, though, you will be better served by building on the coast itself at the cost of the Stone tile. That is because the coastal city that is used in the first two strategies (on the Red Sea) will not be powerful enough to serve your other needs in this one. Here is why.

A city stuffed with Wonders will quickly generate Great People. However, the Wonders will influence which Great People you get, and even if you use that city to hire artists, those Wonders will still pollute the probability stream. It is quite possible to pop a Great Artist under such circumstances, and such a city can generate enough GP points that you are unlikely to hit the deadline without popping at least one Great Artist. But if you don't want to play the odds, you will have to have two separate cities: one to house requisite Wonders (Stonehenge, the Pyramids, and the Oracle), and another to generate a GA.

The delta city, because of its resources, must be used to hold the specialists that will generate the GA; this means the other city must be a production powerhouse that will build your requisite Wonders, and a Red Sea city will not be sufficiently powerful for that. The solution is to build one city on the rich Mediterranean coast, while building a second city down near the Stone and Gold, at your starting location. Besides Stone, Gold, and Marble, this site also encompasses the Copper-producing hill.

However, once the Wonder city has begun churning out Wonders, it and the Artist city will be competing to produce a Great Person. If the Wonder city gets enough Wonders up early enough, it may pop GPs (none of them Artists) before the Artist city can pop its GA by the deadline. This means that that Artist city should be the first city built, so that it can get a head start on popping a GA.

Still, you can't dawdle on getting to the Wonders, since this strategy presumes getting Stonehenge. The build order in your capital city should probably be Worker – Settler, and the research order Mysticism – Masonry – Pottery, so that you can get both cities up and running almost simultaneously.

You are unlikely to lose Stonehenge in the meantime. If you do, then you have lost the UHV game, but you will learn of this disaster quickly enough that you won't have wasted a lot of time. (By contrast, if you try to use a combination of artists and Wonders to quickly pop a GA, you may not know until very late whether the randomizer was your friend or enemy.) Pyramids should also quickly be yours. Your delay in starting on Wonders means you run a much greater chance of losing the Oracle to another civilization, but even if so, you can still win with careful work and bold timing. If you load up your capital with artists early enough, you will quickly pop your GA, and then you can switch your city to scientists. Besides the lightbulbs, this will practically guarantee you a Great Scientist and an Academy to further boost your progress. Also, do not neglect to develop and use the Gold tile (which will require trading for Mining) southeast of your production city.

Still, if you have lost the Oracle, it is likely to be a close-run thing at the end, and you may not hit Literature soon enough to have time to build the Great Library. For that reason, it is good idea to nurture population growth in your production city, and to grovel for Mining and Bronze Working from your neighbors so that you can pull the maximum number of hammers out of the Copper hill. Stonehenge will let you switch back to Slavery, and if your population is high enough and your production fast enough, you should be able whip it by the deadline.

End Game
By turn 134 at the latest you will probably know whether you have lost or won. But victory will not be yours officially until you hit turn 152. During those last twenty or twenty-five turns, though, you will face invasion from the west and south (and sometimes the east) by barbarian Camel Archers and Horse Archers, and Native Impis.

With a strong research rate and some whipping, it is possible to build the Great Wall before turn 152, but it is not necessary. (And in the case of the Natives, it is useless.) War Chariots and Horse Archers are not good against the mounted units, and are highly vulnerable to the Impis; Archers are useful only if the enemy attacks your cities directly, and you will want to engage them in the country before they can pillage your lovely empire. Your best defense, then, is a stack of six to ten bronze units: Spearman to fight the mounted units, and Axemen to fight the Impis. A strategic highway along the west bank of the Nile will allow you to shuttle this powerful stack to any location that is under threat; it will also get your army away from the cities in case of a plague.

This means that Hunting and Bronze Working and Mining are the key techs you need to get after you have assured yourself of ultimate UHV victory; you can safely ignore Archery and Horseback Riding, unless you find yourself engaged in a serious war with one of your neighbors. You can research them, of course, but the quicker way is to trade with your rivals for them. The price will be steep, but it doesn't matter, since your only goal is to get units that will let you stay alive for another two dozen turns.

Now I think I'm going to go try blzzrd's Greek game. I've never tried that before, and it sounds intriguing ...

 

[blizzrd]

That guide could be added to the wiki.

 

[ScavengerType]

IMO short and simple UHVs like Greece and Egypt don't need UHVs, but rather simple restatements of the goals you need to achieve.

Not to demean your contributions though guys.

 

[The Q-Meister]

It (Egypt) is not the best civilization to use if you are intent on conquering the world or even just on surviving into late eras of the game

Bit of an understatement there I think...

Otherwise good strategy guide, well done!

 

[thebigticket]

Hi, I made a simple but significant change in the game (In the code).
Since I hate seeing cities that are defended by e.g. riflemen next to longbowmen, I integrated free unit promotion always and for every civ. Do you think the game will be too unbalanced? I mean are there any disadvantages for any civ or will the AI have a disadvantage because of its behaviour in unit producing or anything like it?

 

[BurnEmDown]

Well first of all it makes the German UP extremely weak since everyone has it.
Second, that will make production much more important than commerce, and it already is kind of. What I mean is that civs will now just tech until say rifling, but not finish the tech, instead teching something else for now, while building TONS of melee or archery units (which cost much less hammers than riflemen), and when they have enough they'll finish the rifling research and will have a large up-to-date army which will be able to easily take over another civ.
So yes it will be too unbalanced .

 

[Ready_set_go]

With Germany, if you get to Industrialism first, your pretty much assured France and Rome, maybe Greece.
Your changes make it so the largest empire capable of research will always win, as it needs the most units, and researches and updates them the most, too.

 

[blizzrd]

Well first of all it makes the German UP extremely weak since everyone has it.

If it were for every civ except the human player, it would be fine. The AI needs all the help it can get currently.

 

[JujuLautre]

This can be done by modifying the handicap file if I'm correct. In that case, there's perhaps no need to completely remove the upgrade cost.

 

[Ready_set_go]

I still think you would need to change the UP for Germany if you did that, because if the AI plays as Germany, they would get no real bonus.

 

[ScavengerType]

modernizing an army is historically a quite costly endeavor. I have never noticed the AI to stay too obsolete in it's units anyway. Sure they don't modernize immediately, but I've seldom seen many late/post-industrial nations sporting long bow men.

 

[dragodon64]

It's usually me (the player) who has archers/LBs guarding cities into the modern era because its just not a worthwhile expenditure (those cities will never face combat anyway!)

 

[Ready_set_go]

Same with me. But AI always get a ton of gold, (Great Merchants and stuff), and along with they unit spam they use, at least they protect their cities well, if not attacking well.

 

[ge0h0und]

Hi,

I tried searching through the thread, but I couldn't really find anything to answer my question.

Now I'm trying to play as Greece, and I'm using the strategy guide on them on Rhye's site. However I don't understand the Oracle part of the guide to obtain machinery for free.

Based on the tech tree you need to complete Metal Casting in order to select Machinery, however with the guide it only tells you to work on Priesthood, Masonry, and then Iron Working.

So I don't understand this.. I played as Greece a long time ago, and I remember getting it to work this way, but I can't do it now. And I don't understand how Machinery is available without metal casting being completed? Is there a specific step in the guide, that I'm apparently missing, that allows you to bypass metal casting?

Guide: http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/in...l_of_Civilization_-_Greek_strategy#The_Oracle

The only thing I see is that I'm completing this at around Turn 93 or so. Is the machinery option only available before turn 74/1000BC?

 

[BurnEmDown]

In a recent update Rhye removed Greece's starting tech Metal Casting, so that guide is not up to date.