Strategy, Tactics & Logistics

I read all the post of this thread and found them really interesting. You guys talked about a lot of different nations. However, I think you guys missed another historical leader. I'm talking of Ghengis Khan. He managed to conquer all China and transformed form a barbarian tribe to a real civilization. At Genghis Khan death, the mongolian empire was already HUGE. See this picture.

Genghis_khan_empire_at_his_death.png


After his death, the empire continued to expand and became the biggest continuous land empire in world history. Ruling 35 million km².

800px-Mongol_Empire.PNG


The mongolian also made the biggest naval invasion ever against the japanese. With 300 large vessels and 400-500 smaller craft, it's the biggest naval invasion I know of. It was destroyed by a typhoon (hurricane). It mostly saved japan from an invasion.

I find the mongol history really interesting and not talked about much.
 
BoomWav, thanks for the comments. (Edit: And welcome to CivFanatics!)

You're right that I didn't use Gengis in any examples. When looking for examples to use I needed them to conform to two points. The first was that I needed to know and understand them or I couldn't even consider them. The second was that my audience had to know them too. When doing exposition I always find the lesson hits harder when I'm expositing (is that a new word?) using examples that the audience already knows. That way I'm only teaching one thing rather than two.

I don't know what lessons we might draw from Gengis within the confine of looking at what he did in terms of a seperation between strategy, tactics and logistics. He clearly understood them though or I don't believe he could have achieved what he did, which as you point out, was staggering.

That he started so small and then made something that stood after his death shows a mastery of all of the levels I wanted to talk about. That Machieavellian ruthless streak can't have gone amiss either though :). I'm just pleased he's not banging on the doors of my city...
 
Hi KayEss
I thought your article on strategy was excellent and pruposeful. In Civ or life the purpose Grand Strategy must be carefully thought about. In Civ you can say to win, but using which method, what about learning!, improving & above all experiencing the game whith all its subtleties, unpredictability and depth.
I agree that the aim of each game is to make the most of what you have. That is why I only play on deity, huge raging barbarians, no cheating, 18 civs. I have found that the best optimisation strategy is exploration and diplomacy regardess of you rstarting terrrain. I can say more but I would like to save until I am ready.
I would like to know where you built up that knowledge on strategy.:)
 
Very nice. This is a great guide even though it doesn't actually mention the game much at all. The concepts you bring up with this makes me think about making my OWN strategies rather than following other's. Excellent work with it.
 
@Alex Bunn - thanks. I'm pleased you liked it. I talk about winning in Civ really as a backdrop to explain what the terms mean. I think you can look at all of these issues from wargamming, to politics, to business and even computer programming. The basic split between strategy, tactics and logistics seems universal in anything that requires planning and doing.

I don't think I'm a great wargamming strategist and what little I do know I've learnt from these forums. As for the history, that was things half-remembered and then looked up properly.

@Civthing - when do you work out your strategies write them up! I think there is a dearth of good strategy pieces exploring the higher level aspects of the game.
 
KayEss said:
And indeed, the AI seems ready to prove that numbers on their own is not enough to carry the day (although they clearly help - I can't think any general would ever ask for less troops).

Only Gideon in the Bible, but he had reserves most of us cannot rely on :) Good article.
 
The Greeks were the true innovators in both siege weaponry and battlefield tactics, the Romans were excellent at copying and expanding on existing ideas.

For example, many Greeks such as Demetrius "Poliorcetes" (Taker of Cities) was the inventor of the Heliopolis (304 BC), Dionysios of Syracuse is credited with inventing the Catapult in Europe (399 BC), there was Onomarchus of Phocis, and the Greeks also invented the first Ballista, known as the Gastrophetes. The Wars of the Diadochoi, waged by the Empire's of Alexander's successors were the epitome and most advanced forms of warfare to date.

The Romans borrowed this technology.

The Romans also borrowed the tactic of the Hoplite Phalanx formation. In Rome's early days, it had trade contacts with the Greek city-states of southern Italy. That's where they borrowed many ideas of their religion, architecture and also their military. It wasn't until Rome was sacked by Gauls during the early days of Rome that they changed their military to be more maneuverable so as to accomodate fast moving skirmishers.
 
I think Kayess has written on an important topic that has been given only scant attention. Much thanks to Kayess for bringing out the difference between grand strategy, operational strategy, and tactics.

I think we can only generalize certain principles which are at best vague for grand strategies, but I doubt we can ever formulate equations that will help us find a grand strategy. Grand strategy determination is the result of carefully anazlying all factors that are at play which affect the outcome of a struggle between players. But since each game is different from each other, the grand strategy used in the last game can not apply to the current one.

Tactics are simply tools and instruments that are used to fullfill grand strategy. So once we have determined the grand strategy, all that we need to do is read the "strategy" articles on this forum to look for those tactics that will help us achieve our grand strategy. In that sense, perhaps "strategy" articles should really be called "tactics" articles.

I have read quite a few war stories on this forum where the authors write out their war plans. One author wanted to attack Egypt, and the plan was to attack by creating two fronts, one on the north, and the other on the east. Meawhile, later on into the game, the author planned to create a third front.

The plan is good. It sounds organized, and systematic, but I have always wanted to ask what motivated this plan in the first place? What was the thought process that was going through his mind that led him to decision to open three different fronts? Why not just two? Or why not four? Or why opening more than one front at all? How will the three front strategy be superior to a two front strategy or a four fronts strategy? This is something that the author had never satisfactorily explained. A strategy that sounds organized and systematic, like the three fronts strategy described above, won't have much value if it doesn't in the end help the war effort any more than a four fronts strategy or two fronts strategy.

Grand strategies require rigorous analysis of the situation and all factors involved first. Only have these been done can we find a grand strategy. And once we have a clear strategy and a set of objectives, we can pick and choose tactics that we wish to use from this forum that can help us achieve our goals.

Grand strategies involve technology, economics, diplomacy and military, not just military alone. Sometimes our grand strategies may not have anything to do with military at all. Certain game conditions such as the player's civilization attributes may require a strategy of technology diplomacy in which trading of tech forms the basis of the game. Somtimes grand strategy may be all about religion. Sometimes it is a combination of many things.

A player once found himself in the rare and unfortunate situation in which he had no access to iron or copper, resources that are needed to build swordsman. He had only horse to work with that allows him to build mounted units. Most players seem to have agreed that mounted units are not as good as swordsmen in the beginning of the game, so most tactics articles written on this forum talks about how best to use swordsmen, while little attention is devoted to the best use of mounted units.

What should the player have done? The player's strength is finance, wealth, and decent technology, while the enemy's only strength is his abundance of resources. The player's finally settled on a grand strategy. First, he will appease his militaristic neighbor who has swordsmen through payment of tributes. This was to buy time. Then, wiith the time purchased from tribute payment, he was to build forts all along the boarder between his enemy and himself and staff the forts with archers and other defensive units. Third, he was to build a largest army based on mounted units the world has ever seen. Mounted units might not do well when attacking someone else. But they make decent defense army. Moreover, their extra movement points allow them to penetrate deeply into the enemy territory, enabling them to pillage land improvements, destroy roads that connect to vital strategic resources to ruin the rival empire's economy. Fourth, the deep penetration by the mounted units were further amplified by the player's decision to reach for seafaring technology which enable him to build ships and transport his mounted units to all parts of the enemy empire in a much faster manner while his technologically inept enemy still had no ship building technology.

Through merciless focus and discipline, the player executed his grand strategy brilliantly. The grand strategy is best described as economic destruction that quickly left the rival empire technologically very behind. Although the rival empire had swordsmen, the more technologically advanced player eventually had superior army to work with, making the enemy swordsmen irrelevant. This is grand strategy.

Many players sometimes find themselves trapped on a tiny island that supports only at most five cities. When this happens, they often throw up their hands to declare surrender. A more strategic player might have decided to do the following.

The first obvious thing to do is to obtain shipbuilding technologies. With ships, we can sent settlers to build cities on other continents. However, building cities on other continents will drain huge financial resources because of the distance from the capital. Two ways to mitigate this situation is Forbidden Palace as well as the founding of religions, building of shrines, and spreading of that religion worldwide.

So for players trapped on a tiny island, the national policy is to expand onto the other continents. The operational strategies are to first research searfaring tech, the tech that is needed to build Forbidden Palace, found a religion, and spread it like crazy.

At the same time, players can opt for another strategy. Much articles have been written that talk about diplomacy and allies. One article I remember is the triangular diplomacy. Perhaps, we can employ concepts from triangular diplomacy to build a an alliance with two powerful neighbors so that together the three (including the players) can attack a weaker rival. This will allow the island players to seize cities from the weaker rival, thus gaining a foothold on the continent abroad.

A combination of the two aboved described strategies will work even better. We can pick a spot on a distant continent that is yes unoccupied. With Forbidden Palace and spreading of religion, we can finance our city buildings in this region of the continent. However, to the north of this region is a computer rival empire that might not particularly like our presence on this continent. So we use triangular diplomacy to secure an alliance with two other computer empires on the same continent in order to attack our enemy to our north. Then we take as many cities as we can. This way, the cities we take from the enemy will form a contiguous landmass with the cities that we are building ourselves in the south. This is grand strategy.

In the end, maybe your grand strategy will not work. But that's okay. The fun isn't whether or not the grand strategy will ultimately take you to victory. The fun is how close to victory are you when you have a well formulated grand strategy, especially in usually very adverse conditions. Singapore, Taiwan, Japan are three countries in the world that are starved of natural resources. Singapore particularly was the country that nobody in the 1960's believed would ever achieve any rapid economic development. Yet, through a formulation of a grandstrategy, and disciplined focus and execution, Singapore defied everyone's expectation, and became the first world country today with a very high standard of living that puts her neighbor to shame. So try to play the game with grand strategies in mind. I think you guys will find the game very rewarding this way.
 
Good point, and remember to add some foot soldiers (without resources that means archers) to your pillage stacks.

Combined horse archer - archer stacks should do fairly well at pillaging, although axeman and spearmen with horse archers (or chariots) is better if you have copper. Horse archers are stronger than axemen, and likely to beat swordsmen because the swordsmen will likely use their promos on city raider while the horse archers use combat. Archers on any type of defensively friendly terrain should beat spearmen. So with a few horse archers and a few archers in a stack, you can move one square per turn through enemy territory and pillage at the same time. Because without metal you have no unit that can beat swordsmen or spearmen or even probably axemen who are receiving any defensive bonus, you probably can't pillage their actual iron or copper resources (unless they're only guarded by archers, which horse archers do well against), but cutting the roads to them is just as good. Civ4 does a pretty good job of ensuring that a decent defensive army can be built if you get screwed out of resources, so unless you can't live without early conquests don't despair.
 
@ShadowWarrior - Thank you for your thoughtful addition. It was exactly this sort of re-targetting of the articles in here that I was hoping for. I originally wrote this as I was getting sick of people attacking tactical articles because they said the authors idea wouldn't work in this or that situation. This to me was completely missing point.

I was also interested in learning how the best players formulated their grand strategies. Before a game starts they may have an idea of how they want to win, but the more interesting situation is when everything is against them - how do they weight their options then? What makes them think one thing will be better than another? As you so correctly say, the most interesting situation (to read about) is when they come back from the brink of failure. But unfortunately too many of the write ups describe what they did, not why they did it.

So, I know that writing about the 'whys' is harder than describing the 'how', but please, next time you're writing about a game you've played try to tell us why you thought of a certain plan not just how you executed it.
 
Intersting stuff at the first glance, maybe I´ll have some time to read it trought...
But to add that one BIG reason for the D-Day was that Americans(presumably British as well) Had a great fear that Germans Can´t hold the Soviet pressure that was really groving strong at that time...Americans wanted to keep Europe "western".... If they wouldn´t have attack to France Soviet might have taken over the whole Europe in some time and made it Communist!...Althought war would have taken alot longer time to end...

i'm afraid that is not true. although churchill was deeply concerned about post war soviet control of europe, roosevelt did not see it as an issue at all. at the time, the americans did not forsee the rise of comminism as real threat and they didn't regard who took power in europe after the war as particularly important for them when compared with winning the war(s).

churchill did forsee soviet russia as a looming threat and advocated an allied offensive from italy, where troops had already landed and occupied, to push up through the balkans and into germany to prevent soviet control of eastern europe (the balkans especially). but roosevelt agreed to stalin's requests to open a western front by landing in france for mainly political reasons, rather than military. the worst thing in roosevelt's view would to end up fighting the russians for control of the balkans. churchill had to reluctantly agree to the normandy landings as britain was in no position to dictate terms to either the americans or the russians - if the tri-partate (if you are french thats english for four part :P) alliance broke down, it was britain who had the most to lose.

far from thwarting soviet ambitions, the d-day landings delivered eastern europe, uncontested, to the communists as the price for keeping the russians in the alliance against germany. had the allied forces that had already occupied italy, continued to germany through the balkans according to churchill's plan, the americans and british may well have taken berlin before the soviets and the war may have ended sooner. but we'll never know.
 
Hi,

Some interesting thoughts. One point to perhaps consider, at the outset of WW2, Blitskrieg was not a German tactic as such. I know this sounds odd but, to the best of my knowledge, it did not appear in any German training manual as a formal tactic.

What happened, happened almost by chance.

It was only after the fact that the actions of the Germans were labelled "lightning war". The actual components were developments from WW1 tactics such as the formation of stormtroopers, mobility (as provided by tanks) and airpower. All the Germans did (to astonishing effect) was to work out how to use the developments most effectively as a whole.

Similarly with Napoleon, your comments are correct but it was the combined use of artillery, infantry and cavalry that initially made his tactics so effective. By the time of Waterloo, the French army was a shadow of the force that conquered most of Europe.

Must stress though, I did like the article.

John
 
You have consistently misspelled "were" as "where", "AD" as "CE", and "BC" as "BCE". Please fix these errors. The rest of them, not many people will notice. Otherwise, it's a pretty good article.
 
Excellent article; certainly the best one I've read yet on strategy. You are correct that most other articles describe the logistics of raising an army, but little strategy beyond "enter enemy borders with SOD - take cities as you see them" with the occasional "bring lots of siege."

I see many forum posts reflected in our school system. While being "educated", most students want you to tell them how to solve the problem. They are not interested in learning how to solve ALL problems by learning how to think about a problem, because not ALL problems will be on the test. Never mind the fact that once you know how to solve all problems, you can handle whatever shows up on the test.

In civ4, many players would like to know how to beat this map. Or they would like you to tell them the ideal opening build/tech order that will win on their next level. As players get better, they stop answering such questions in any detail, as they know how foolish their answer will sound. Hence the useless advice of "play the map" is actually an indication of a better understanding of the game than "build X, Y ... set slider to Z".

Learning to think at higher strategic levels will help you win ALL maps. Dingding's posts are at this level if you are interested in an example.

Thanks again for the article.
 
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