Strong & weak civs, I need help.

[AntSou]

Oh

I can understand that!

Could I ask if you disagree with a particular point or with all the argument in general?


I must admit that after the analysis, I consider Spain stronger that I thought but just needing a tiny improvement on Treasure fleet.

The same as for the Vikings, after reading all points of views, a lot of them made me rethink his strength!

I disagree with the main argument that Spain is versatile and that this is so because the +1 boost to production can be applied to anything. Did I understand that right?

But I also don't agree with Denkt when he says it's a Domination only Civ.

The +1 Food / + 1 Prod make your colonies achieve self-sufficiency faster. This is the main value I see in it.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I must admit that after the analysis, I consider Spain stronger that I thought but just needing a tiny improvement on Treasure fleet.

Keep in mind that the Treasure fleet ability is a package of three things:

• +1 food +1 production from internal trade routes and +6 gold (which I think can become 12 with watertrade and railroads) from international trade routes between cities on different continents. Keep in mind that Mail need 6 flat desert tile to produce 6 gold from trade routes.
• Fleet and armadas can be formed at mercantilism.
• +2 loyalty for cities on a different continent with a mission next to the city center.

But I also don't agree with Denkt when he says it's a Domination only Civ.

It is a domination civ in the same way as people use to for example call Korea a science civ.​

 

[AntSou]

[Converting Cities with Conquistadors] Only help towards religious victory if you give the city back to the civ you took it from.

?

This an obviously fallacious argument.

1. The enemy Civ is one city down, which makes it easier to convert them since you only need to control 50% of their cities;

2. You're putting full religious pressure from the get go;

3. You have just wasted ZERO charges in converting your own city therefore saving a ton of Faith and Apostles, which you would have to do if you were anybody else otherwise you'd suffer penalties to loyalty.

You can only use [Inquisitors] against cities you Control so you need to give the city back after the war.

I have no idea what this means or the logic you're trying to imply.

Inquisitors are very cheap and they come with an extra charge and fully eliminate other Religions in your cities. This means, unlike most other Civs, you'll never need to waste Apostles in your own cities when playing as Spain. It's incredibly efficient. Furthermore you can enter another Civ's territories with Inquisitors when at war with them, which makes them versatile as the support unit of choice to pair with Conquistadors once they are down to their last charge.

So yes you can use its abilities to facilitate a religious victory but it would basically just be a variation of conquest victory in which you avoid annexing cities.

But this is just a description of the Civ's design. It's designed exactly so that you can easily push your Religion through military conquest without requiring you to annex everyone's Capitals, especially the minor Civs with not many cities (although you can take the full domination path if you wish). That's the whole point?

I said from the beginning that Dom/Religion help each other when playing as Spain. You're insisting it's a one way street, which the evidence clearly shows it isn't.

 

[Ticio]

I disagree with the main argument that Spain is versatile and that this is so because the +1 boost to production can be applied to anything. Did I understand that right?

But I also don't agree with Denkt when he says it's a Domination only Civ.

The +1 Food / + 1 Prod make your colonies achieve self-sufficiency faster. This is the main value I see in it.

I see!

I should edit the post, because I think Denkt understood the same thing.

What I wanted to say is that spain has a bonus that let them be versatile reaching their bonuses.

They are focused on conquest and religion, but needing science to get to conquistadors, culture to get to teocracy/missions/armadas and faith to conquistadors/religious units, this bonus let them get all of that faster that just a -50% on holy sites.

This bonus give you raw production that let you do faster a science district, a cultural one, a religious site, etc.

That's what made me understand better the Civ and to think understand that is a better Civ contrary to what I thought when I did the post.

So my main concern, that spain had all his bonuses scattered, is no longer a problem because they have this particular bonus to help with that. Treasure fleet make spain versatile adquiring all the stuff they need to activate their bonuses.

The only thing for me, is that the bonus is difficult to activate and, when done, loses value quite rapidly.

At the end is better a versatile civ in general or one that is very focused.
Because Spain will have problems against both (instead of just one).

As the game progresses, is far better to have a -50% for 1 district (for example russia) as he ends up making you stronger on your focus victory but also give you +1 food faster during trade.
In the case of germany, +1 on whatever you want because you will do districts as crazy.

But this districts will give you extra stuff too, so even better! and they will never lose importance as they are a % bonus.

Is easy to make a new city grow with spanish ability in the classical era, but not so much in the Industrial era. At the contrary, is harder to make cities growth with bonus that give you -X% but easier as time passes. And not a lot of time is needed to turn the wheel.

I find now the spanish Bonus "Treasure fleet" strong and very useful, but just needing a litlle tweak to make it relevant in late game (taking in account that is hard to adquire at the start of the game) but also in early game.

Very good bonus, very good idea, very unique, but it is not working as I think they thought (just because is a little underpowered).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

First off to even be able to win a religious victory you need to have found a religion so you can forget about it in games that you don't found a religion and Spain don't need to found a religion to make use of its bonuses.

?

This an obviously fallacious argument.

1. The enemy Civ is one city down, which makes it easier to convert them since you only need to control 50% of their cities;

2. You're putting full religious pressure from the get go;

3. You have just wasted ZERO charges in converting your own city therefore saving a ton of Faith and Apostles, which you would have to do if you were anybody else otherwise you'd suffer penalties to loyalty. Conquistadors

Point 1 applies to all civs, not just spain. For Point 2, yes but religious pressure is quite weak, it can take along time and you can simply conquer them whole. For Point 3, only really apply if you care about religion in first place which you will do if you plan to win a religious victory but otherwise there is seldom much reason to spend the faith to convert the cities.

I have no idea what this means or the logic you're trying to imply.

Inquisitors are very cheap and they come with an extra charge and fully eliminate other Religions in your cities. This means, unlike most other Civs, you'll never need to waste Apostles in your own cities when playing as Spain. It's incredibly efficient. Furthermore you can enter another Civ's territories with Inquisitors when at war with them, which makes them versatile as the support unit of choice to pair with Conquistadors once they are down to their last charge.

Again inquisitors are really only useful if you care about religion and yes you can use them to win a religious victory by capturing cities, use inquisitors and then give them back to the previous owner in the Peace treaty to convert the civ to your religion. For Conquistadors any religious unit work and inquisitors is maybe your cheapest option, but missionaries work as well and given the cost of starting an inquisition is something like 400 faith, you need to get quite a few missionaries Before inquisitors start to become your cheapest option.

But this is just a description of the Civ's design. It's designed exactly so that you can easily push your Religion through military conquest without requiring you to annex everyone's Capitals, especially the minor Civs with not many cities (although you can take the full domination path if you wish). That's the whole point?

Yes you can do that and I even posted how Before and yes any other civ can do similar and yes spain can do it better but basically any sort of warfare is also strongly linked to domination, and especially consider you can Always win a domination victory but the same can't be said about a religious victory.

I said from the beginning that Dom/Religion help each other when playing as Spain. You're insisting it's a one way street, which the evidence clearly shows it isn't.

Domination can help you win basically any sort of victory, and yes it can make a religious victory much less tedious with capturing cities, using inquisition and give them back but I have not seen may people actually play that way.

 

[Ticio]

Keep in mind that the Treasure fleet ability is a package of three things:

• +1 food +1 production from internal trade routes and +6 gold (which I think can become 12 with watertrade and railroads) from international trade routes between cities on different continents. Keep in mind that Mail need 6 flat desert tile to produce 6 gold from trade routes.
• Fleet and armadas can be formed at mercantilism.
• +2 loyalty for cities on a different continent with a mission next to the city center.

It is a domination civ in the same way as people use to for example call Korea a science civ.​

The first thread I did was about some doubts about trading.

It seems that the +6 gold is not affected by canals and water tiles

But we have to think that the bonus also comes with some little drawbacks.

Every tradeline cost a Port district or a Commercial Hub, armadas mean going fast through civics so you need some theater squares. the same goes for +2 loyalty, you need to unlock missions first on the civic tree.

All this production and culture for these bonuses.
If you want the others, you need good science and produce enough faith...

For all of this I think you should always start with internal trade when playing spain, but you are going to have to invest a lot to reach all these paths on time!

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Every tradeline cost a Port district or a Commercial Hub, armadas mean going fast through civics so you need some theater squares. the same goes for +2 loyalty, you need to unlock missions first on the civic tree.

Keep in mind that earlier access to armada mean you get them with less Culture investment than other civs.

Just this for these bonuses. If you want the others, you need good science and produce enough faith...

Well good science is basically a unviersal necessity, faith, yes you will need some but you don't need to go overboard since your mission will produce good amount of it later.

 

[Jewelrunna]

Of course! And in that regard I feel like Spain is one of the weaker civs (though I don't quite get down with the "no bonus to founding a religion" argument. If you're playing Maya, you gotta build farms. If you're playing Phoenecia, you gotta build harbors. If you're playing Spain, you gotta build holy sites. I know it might not be in your standard build order but do it anyway.)

Gran Colombia is pretty obviously double S-tier, if such a thing exists. +1 movement to every unit is absurdly good. And even playing peacefully they're fun, as they can explore the map, settle, and spread religion faster than anyone. They should probably be tweaked.

And a civ like Khmer, which I think is actually quite good at its niche strategy, should probably get half-cost holy sites and aqueducts. A small bonus which fits their gameplan and keeps Firaxis from having to make those officially unique districts, which they basically are.

Freleanor is a special case, because I don't think anyone plays Eleanor except for the challenge of peaceful domination, and Frealanor's bonuses take forever to come online (Engleanor lacks the wonder-building bonus but truly ramps up far better than Freleanor does) but I don't think anyone's really asking for a Frealanor boost - playing as Eleanor is like playing on a special mode, essentially.

But this is kind of my point: Every civ is its own "game mode," really. Playing Gitarja means settling in for building a lot of Kampungs. Playing Catherine de'Medici means you're going to be focused on spies! You can play Norway on Pangea or Mongolia on Archipelago but if you do so you know that you're in for a weird, hard game.

Late in responding to this, but the reason Spain is pretty bad isn't because of their religion bonuses. Their bonuses are actually pretty strong if you can get the religion up and running. But that's the thing--if you can get the religion up and running. Spain are an extremely religion-centric Civilization that has no direct bonus to getting a religion, and that creates a problem with opportunity cost. If you're beelining Holy Sites, what else could you be doing with that time? You could be settling, building an army, grabbing builders, etc. And the fact that you're mass building Holy Sites means you're not grabbing early Campuses or Trade Districts (Harbor/Commercial Hub), which also takes up a spot in your district cap. With the Maya, yeah you have to build farms, but you're going to do that anyways as any other Civ too. As Phoenicia, yeah you have to build Harbors, but you're going to mass build those on the coast anyways (and they have a cheaper Harbor, which helps). As Spain, you have to bend over backwards to rush a Religion, in a way that can really limit the Civ.

Also, to go off recent discussion, Treasure Fleets is a pretty mediocre ability that doesn't really compensate either. +1 to food and production from internal trade routes sounds good, but when you consider how Spain has to play a game style that doesn't really work in Civ, being colonization, it becomes pretty irrelevant. If you start on a continent split, great! This can be really helpful in the early game. But that's extremely luck dependent, which makes me devalue an ability pretty heavily. And even then, the yields aren't strong enough to justify how hard it is to make this a reliable bonus. If Treasure Fleets was a stronger or different ability, then Spain could be a very potent Civ. El Escorial and the Conquistador are quite strong if you meet their conditions. But it isn't, so Spain stand as a bottom five Civ in the game.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Late in responding to this, but the reason Spain is pretty bad isn't because of their religion bonuses. Their bonuses are actually pretty strong if you can get the religion up and running. But that's the thing--if you can get the religion up and running. Spain are an extremely religion-centric Civilization that has no direct bonus to getting a religion, and that creates a problem with opportunity cost. If you're beelining Holy Sites, what else could you be doing with that time? You could be settling, building an army, grabbing builders, etc. And the fact that you're mass building Holy Sites means you're not grabbing early Campuses or Trade Districts (Harbor/Commercial Hub), which also takes up a spot in your district cap. With the Maya, yeah you have to build farms, but you're going to do that anyways as any other Civ too. As Phoenicia, yeah you have to build Harbors, but you're going to mass build those on the coast anyways (and they have a cheaper Harbor, which helps). As Spain, you have to bend over backwards to rush a Religion, in a way that can really limit the Civ.

As I have said Before, you don't need to found a religion as spain as its bonuses only need a religion. Yes there are some advantages to found a religion such as you can win a religious victory, but it is not a necessity.

 

[Ticio]

As I have said Before, you don't need to found a religion as spain as its bonuses only need a religion. Yes there are some advantages to found a religion such as you can win a religious victory, but it is not a necessity.

Keep in mind that earlier access to armada mean you get them with less Culture investment than other civs.

Well good science is basically a unviersal necessity, faith, yes you will need some but you don't need to go overboard since your mission will produce good amount of it later.

Totally agree with that early armada save you culture at the end, but you still need to reach Mercantilism (?) and other civics so the inversion still there. The problem is reaching it in the first place, and another counter to this bonus would be the absurd amount of production you need to forma fleet or armada without the SeaPort.
I'm not sure is worth the time and production at the end (I assume it depends on the scenario) but, I think, is another topic.

But at the end you have to choose what do you want.

If bonus are translated as

- Conquistadors = faith and science (upgraded unit + religious unit + Gold/faith/prod to purchase/maintain)

-Missions/armadas/Theocracy/Cultural heritage = Culture (to reach them in time +Extra expensive as they are in opposites branches of the tree)

- Trade routes = Harbours/CH (you need 1 per city to take advantage of the Treasure fleet bonus).

Optional: Religion = Religious districts (at the start to get a religious, and have a +4 agaisnt all civs)

You want armadas/missions/Theocracy? you will need to invest a least something on culture.
But this will hurt your science/Production/faith/Trade routes losing or hurting the respective bonus

You want conquistadors? you will need to invest on science and faith.
But this will hurt your culture/trade routes so losing or hurting your missions/armadas and trade routes.

You want trade routes to improve cities and have more gold? you will need to invest on Harbors/CH.
But this will hurt yout science and culture, losing or hurting you Conquistadors, missions/armadas and faith production.


That my main point.

Other civs just focus on one path and all the bonuses help them get there sooner or just gave them advatanges being better there.

Spanish ones are strong, but difficult to reach.

Now I uderstand that treasure fleet is focused on correcting that, but is just that +1 food/production is just to low and at the end does not keep up with the costs.

Maybe altering this part of the bonus would make a somekind of snowballing that would make Spain a competitive civ.

 

[Bitterman]

It seems that the +6 gold is not affected by canals and water tiles

?? That doesn't make sense. It should be +6 on top of anything else. If it's like you said, I would be inclined to think it's a bug.

 

[Ticio]

I find some of you ideas for Spain very very interestng. The changes for the missions are perfect!

IMPROVEMENTS:

In my opinion they could choose one path out of 2 to improve Spain:

1) Make them have an easier acces to their bonus on other continents and in general, or just give them bonuses from the start to religion and other stuff.

I find this one a little boring, but just because it would make them very similar to other Civs in the game and I really love civs with different playstyles.

2) Let them as they are but with more rewards for the accomplishement on going to new continents.

Number 2 is my personal favorite! You let them struggle at the start, and make going to a new continent a difficult task, but if they succeed you give them a good compensation!
Pretty much as I see the history of colonial Spain in real life. Hard and costly endeavour (as they were the first and basicly they did it as a medieval civ) but the rewards were insane. High risk/High profit.

For this to happend I think the principal change would need to be on "Treasure Fleet (TF)" bonus.

Actual problem with TF

Right now I think it is just too weak. As I post in another thread, at the end Germany has a better "Treasure fleet" than Spain herself...

Germany (ALL cities): Adjacency bonus CH/IZ more yields from trade > More traders > 1 more district > More yields when trading AND better original cities during the process.

Spain (ONLY other continents): If you manage to go very early to new continents = +1 food/prod. > faster growth and construction > become less and lesss noticeable as everything become more expensive > more difficult to get new cities as game advance (something already difficult at the start for the lack of bonuses)

I do not know the numbers exactly, but what is better?

50% on a district all the time
1+ food/production all the time? (imagning you have it from the start)

I imagine that the 50%, at the start of the game may be not as good, as 50% of 10 production is 5. But when you have to pay 1000, 50% = 500 production

The +1 production at the start may be better, beacuse you will fullfil the production before, but as the game progres the bonus gets weaker and weaker as a +1 to reach 1000 is not so much.

Like with policy cards, the first that gives you +1 production in all cities IS HUGE, but after sometime you need the +X% policies to win, as the other turn obsolete pretty early.


Possible improvements.

I think, again, 2 ways are possible.

1) To give "TF" something like the colonial policy cards so, when trading with an intercontinental city the bonus are % based.

Something like X% on building disctricts and Wonders if you are trading with a different continent.
OR a X% on production, science, faith, gold and growth. A 5% or something to not to make it OP.
And no giving them extra things for international trade or just a 15% gold in this city, but you lose all the others.

It would also represent the fact that they used forced labor (production %), Build a lot of Universities on their colonies (science %), churches (faith %), extracted gold and silver (gold%), and assimilated the indigenous population (Growth%).


OR


2) Make "TF" bonuses like the "alliances" cards policies, but for internal trade.

To mantain the +1 food/production but make it stronger, so it takes more time getting weak.

Something like: +1 food/production for BOTH cities if they are trading through diferent continents.

And, maybe, add more yields if these trade routes goes through more continents.
Like you have City A, B and C, all of them on different continents.

trade routes:

A > B = +1 yields
B > C = +1 yields

A > B > C = +2 Yields

A > B > C > D (in a fourth continent) = +3 yields for A

Make sacking spanish traders 50% rewarding for other civs or so, so the enemies would prioritize them and if succed they will cripled Spain (then, early armadas bonus would be very appealing)

That would help making TF not lose efficiency as the game progresses, becasue as the game advance the reach of your trades routes would get better and you will unlock this "intercontinental trade" later in the game and also with careful positioning of the cities (not and easy thing anyways).

That would also replicate something historical like the "manila Galleon"; trading from Asia > America > Europe > Africa AND viceversa = super Hight profits
but also the problem with piracy preventing them to become too powerfull.

So like in real life = Spanish getting too strong? > attack trade lines > you weaken them + you become rich > you get stronger and stronger at spanish expenses!


Conclusion:

The idea behind the changes would be, "okay, you are getting a hard time reaching other continents,but if you manage to do so, you will have a very good compensation. The more you invest in these cities, the more profit you get, so take care of them and the traders that allow it."

Apart of that, your idea about missions and theocracy is imperative.

And I really like the faith project too! quite unique and fitting Spain (of course the changes should have a malus, to avoid them being super strong).

What do you think about these changes for Treasure fleet? I really think that any of them could give Spain a very unique way to play. Very rewarding if you manage to survive and success against the odds.

In addition, I think they are easy changes to apply, not changing at all the spirit of the civ nor the original concept/idea behind Spain's bonuses.

These were the changes to Treasure Fleet I thogh could be interesting.

I do not know if they are too strong or would not make them better, but is what I expected when I played Spain (In fact, at first I thought that the more continents, the more bonuses to trade XD)

I have made a lot of posts about this same topic, I must apologizes because they are too many and I don't want to be tiring

So I would be glad to change to another civ that you all think could be upgraded!! Because I'm loving these posts, I'm learning a lot with all your points of views!

And feel free to let me know about the changes to Treasure fleet, maybe they are just insane hahahaa!

?? That doesn't make sense. It should be +6 on top of anything else. If it's like you said, I would be inclined to think it's a bug.

I just finished a quick scenario to check it.

it seems that the person who told me was right.

The scenario I runned is like this:

- Same cities, same yields, and forcing a trade through water tiles (then a 100% increase of the initial amout of gold) between different continents.

England:

1) + 3 for commerce to city state

2) +3 for 100% efficiency bonus

Spain:

1) + 3 for commerce to city state

2) + 3 for 100% efficiency bonus

3) + 6 for spain Treasure fleet bonus


Conclusion:

So Spanish trade routes do not have beneficies from improving the trade routes.

I mean, they have... but as if it was a "normal" trade route, without not including the spanish's bonus.

you get a raw +6 for all the game but cannot be modified by any means.


I assume it's the same for Cleopatra and Egypt bonus to trade, but I will need to check!

EDIT: I checked, it is the same for Egypt and the bonus: +4 gold when trading with other civs.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

To use Spain, choose Crusade.

1:If you believe in my religion, I get +10 from Crusade

2:If you believe in your religion, I get +4 from UA.

In fact these 2 can stack, as the (1) is city-wide while (2) is civ-wide, so before you attack a city you only need to convert that city's religion, but still let other cities go. And this gives you +14.

The UU is already running at 65 strength.

65+14+5(from general)=84, while a tank has 80 strength. You can get another 4 from Oligarchy Legacy and another 4 from Religious War policy, making it 92.

 

[Ticio]

To use Spain, choose Crusade.

1:If you believe in my religion, I get +10 from Crusade

2:If you believe in your religion, I get +4 from UA.

In fact these 2 can stack, as the (1) is city-wide while (2) is civ-wide, so before you attack a city you only need to convert that city's religion, but still let other cities go. And this gives you +14.

The UU is already running at 65 strength.

65+14+5(from general)=84, while a tank has 80 strength.

Wow ... I never thought of this use of faith!

That¡s quite interesting, I think I will try it in my next spanish run.

What I normally did, was to take "Burial grounds" as it takes for free and instantly the tiles that I need to work the missions (and multiplayer is super fun to steal importants tiles of the enemy even if it means war).

or crusade, as it help you keep the conquered city. So I had the +4 mdg and then another +4 to keep the city.

 

[Bitterman]

To use Spain, choose Crusade.

1:If you believe in my religion, I get +10 from Crusade

2:If you believe in your religion, I get +4 from UA.

In fact these 2 can stack, as the (1) is city-wide while (2) is civ-wide, so before you attack a city you only need to convert that city's religion, but still let other cities go. And this gives you +14.

The UU is already running at 65 strength.

65+14+5(from general)=84, while a tank has 80 strength.

Add +4 from oligarchy legacy card and you have 88.

 

[earlofbrigand]

Colombia aside, Germany seems the strongest. The ability to add an extra district per pop tier and the extra government slot is a big bonus. They don't have to make sacrificial choices and thus are able to back up any 'victory focus' with alternate pathways.

 

[Ticio]

Colombia aside, Germany seems the strongest. The ability to add an extra district per pop tier and the extra government slot is a big bonus. They don't have to make sacrificial choices and thus are able to back up any 'victory focus' with alternate pathways.

I only saw Gran Colombia in a multiplayer game, I think they were insanely strong.

But apart that, I agree with you, I think Germany is the strongest Civ. I never performed better than with them, and it was one of my first games!

We normally ban them on our multiplayers games.

 

[Basajaun]

Late in responding to this, but the reason Spain is pretty bad...

Just tried my first game as Spain. In my usual setup, and experienced all those problems firsthand. I dont know if it was bad luck, but this was my start:

Spain 1

• Basajaun
• Jun 8, 2020

Starting in a remote cape, with a ridiculous mountain range right above me, and Gengis Khan at the "exit" of the pass.
Ive used the usual 2 holy sites strat as soon as possible, and started expanding towards Gengis, which naturally pissed him off. Even though I was guarding it with 2 archers and a spearman, I lost Zaragoza. Retook it, then pushed and eliminated Gengis completely because I was completely landlocked otherwise. Okay maybe a couple spots to the south, but REALLY poor spots. + I hate him because he is my direct neighbor more often than not and forces me to go hard military every time it happens.
Immediately there was a military emergency against me, which Tomyris joined. Ive bullied her a bit pillaging her harbors and managed to upgrade a galley to caravel and she offered a nice peace deal. At this point Tomyris was not a threat anymore, due to having several recently upgraded pikemen that I had to use against Gengis.
Meanwhile, I was trying to find another continent, but couldnt because there were too many quads at the borders of the continent I spawned in, so world exploration had to be delayed until I managed to get enough resources for another caravel.
Fast forward some turns, I get to the other continent, and find out that there are just 2 settleable spots (by settleable I mean not -20 loyalty penalty) and they are 20+ tiles apart. Plus, they are full tundra or full desert spots.

Spain 2

• Basajaun
• Jun 8, 2020

So, in conclussion, I could get to like this civ if at least there was a decent patch of land that I can expand to. As it is, considering Im a peaceful player generally, its not worthwile at all to go out of my way to settle another continent. Just fill the remaining spots in the current continent and call it a day. + I have not done the math, but it feels to me that considering the investment required for the mission to work properly, Id rather ignore them or ignore religion completely and build a campus in every city in my current continent. Also this way I dont have to split my army, or make it bigger wasting more resources and upping maintenance costs, to defend those remote cities.

Oh, and this was King diff. I dont want to even imagine how crowded the map must be in Deity.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

In MP Germany is much stronger than single player. As CS don't start with walls so the +7 becomes really meaningful.

 

[Minou]

I really like Norway for fast Science Victory. @Lily_Lancer is not exaggerating about the value of pillaging. I've gotten >20,000 science even in a one city challenge game. Certainly more is possible in a normal game, but I only bothered to track the pillage value that one time. I personally play a bit sub-optimally as I tend to enjoy city states so much I almost never pillage them. I also feel like pillaging a city and letting it flip back by loyalty to pillage again is an exploit so I don't do that.

That said, I think some of the misconception of Norway's pillage bonus not being incredibly strong comes from focusing on coastal raids. Longship raiding can be very productive on some maps but on some standard games (Standard map size, Continents, Deity) you end up with very few AI coastal cities. This doesn't really matter though, because pillaging is usually best done by Light Cavalry.

My vote for Norway as top tier is based on:

1. Early pillaging can be incredibly strong. I often go with a Scout as my first build, and it is very common to be able to pillage one or two pastures or quarries in the first 30-40 turns, which can easily speed Political Philosophy by 5-10 turns.

2. Pillaging scales, so it stays strong the entire game, or at least until you have such high science you would get one tech per turn anyway. With Raid you are often getting 100 science or culture per tile pillaged which is roughly equal to a whole turn of normal science/culture at that stage in the game.

3. As a subtle bonus, pillaging can give you some flexibility to switch Civics. I often leave one Civic 90% completed so that I can pillage a tile and finish it to do something like slot in Professional Army, Retinues, and Diplomatic League, use their abilities, and then swap right back into Wars of Religion, Conscription, and Charismatic Leader (or whatever I was using before).

4. Longships can be amazing! With Maritime Industry plus Norway's innate 50% bonus they are incredibly cheap (26 production). You can build one in 2 or 3 turns in a good city. With Oligarchy, two Longships can easily demolish a coastal city. The only real problem is loyalty, but if you plan well the Longships can take out one city the same turn your ground troops take out another so they prop each other up. The sweetest thing is encountering Maori (isolated cities so no loyalty issues) or a coastal Civ like England where Longships can take multiple cities quickly.

5. The ability to enter open oceans with just Shipbuilding is surprisingly strong. You can ignore the top row of the tech tree forever and still send Longships overseas early. It is possibly to reach the other continent(s) by ~T50 to meet overseas city states and if you are lucky ransack the shorelines of coastal AIs for more pillage bonuses. Once the Longships have scouted the shorelines, your can even get Horsemen overseas to conquer before they are obsolete in many games.

And yeah, Samurai and Stave Church suck but they don't actually hurt you in anyway.