struggling to make it...

[Zarty]

Another newbiew question.

I'm fairly new to CivIV and BtS. I've been reading quite a lot of the messages in this forum to see how I can do better but still seem to be missing something quite important. I'm playing Warlord and I read that it's important to grab some land and that probably means fighting for it, especially early on. I made some progress in this way but what I've found is that unless I spend the time to grab a whole contintent, I won't have a chance of winning. However, on the other hand, the price to pay for all that aggression is that I'm way behind other CIVS (the surving ones of course) and I can never quite close the gap. However, as an alernative strategy, if I concentrate on developing my cities for researching techs and/or improving culture, for sure one of the other CIVS will march in and destroy me. Bulking up my defenses sucks up so much resource, I'll lose in that way too. Yet, if I see what the winning CIVs are doing, they seem to have developed big armies and very advanced in terms of culture and/or tech research at the same time.

From my newbie standpoint, it would appear that I'm not developing quickly enough but I think I'm doing what has been suggested in this forum like 'working the tiles', land improvements, trading, researching techs/culture/wealth and so on. Not sure what to try to do better? Suggestions?

Zarty

 

[JujuLautre]

Without any input of your games, it's really hard to guess what's wrong. I suggest you to post a save.

 

[oranges]

I don't see why you need to grab the whole continent to be able to win, especially on Noble and below. In fact, it might be counterproductive to destroy all your neighbors as soon as you can as you will have only domestic trade routes and no partners to tech trade, meaning you'll have to research everything on your own, unlike the civs on another continent. Since you've spent all time conquering and not building infrastructure, the sheer size of the empire does not help as much as a more balanced, but smaller empire would. Try to take one neighbor out and consolidate, then if you feel like it, go after the other(s). For more pertinent comments, a save would be nice.

 

[Willem]

However, on the other hand, the price to pay for all that aggression is that I'm way behind other CIVS (the surving ones of course) and I can never quite close the gap. However, as an alernative strategy, if I concentrate on developing my cities for researching techs and/or improving culture, for sure one of the other CIVS will march in and destroy me.

It sounds to me like you're using an either/or approach. You don't need to go out and conquer the whole continent nor do you have to sit back and focus on science, while neglecting your military. You need to find a balance between the two. Even if you never attack anyone and concentrate on building the most cultural and enlightened civ in the game, you're still going to need to put resources into your military. If you become too weak then you're neighbours are going walk in and take you out, just because they can.

 

[jackdog]

Yup everything in moderation. Build cottages early, very early, even a few will make a difference early on. As a rule I like to be at eight cities at least by the end of macemen and obviously 8 is the magic number due to forbidden palace. I will usually take out, or mostly take out a civ to get there but not always. Don't just go in and raise or take each city, cripple them then sue for peace and ask for cash tech or both, some will some wont, it depends on the tech. Just had Elizabeth down to her last city surronded by rifles to her maces and she still wouldn't give me feudalism!!.

Remember your city specialisation, this starts right at city placement, have a GP farm, not always the capital by I still tend to wonder spam a bit so it often is, and have a production city.

Direct your tech path towards a specific goal. I tend to go for rifles as early as possible and yes have rifles before longbows as I would rather build an offensive unit than a defensive one, If you are being attacked and its a surprise you not looking at the power graph. I don't tech archery, military tradition or military science, amongs others to get rifles first. This only one example but it works for me right up to Monarch. Be directed about what you want to achieve then do that, just building nice cities teching all the techs of the time and having an average army is not only dull but fatal.

just some random thoughts

 

[Zarty]

Appreciate the comments. Yeh, it makes sense that I'm just crippling my economy by trying to take over the continent. It's just that when I used to just take over one civ and be happy with that, the other civs seemed to always be ahead. Anyway, I've uploaded a save a good period of time after I had taken over the continent but still some way to go before I get beat with cultural victory.

Ta,
Zarty

 

[Zarty]

It'll probably help if I upload the next save which shows things after I'ld been building up and discovering the other CIVs.

Zarty

 

[oranges]

The first thing I noticed is that you're running 20 percnet science rate for no good reason. You have loads of money, as well as gaining +100 surplus every turn. My World Builder is borky, so I'm unable to check whether the civs on another continent are significantly more advanced, but unless you have some good reason to save that money, up that research as much as you can, even losing money if you have some to spare.

If I understood correctly, someone won a culture victory in the game later on. Unfortunately, nothing you can do about it until astronomy, when you get to build some ships that can actually transport troops across the ocean and raze/capture one of the three cities.

BTW, why haven't' you build any caravels and explored the world and met the civs on the other end of the ocean? Theoretically, you can send spies on caravels and use the mission to send the city into riot to slow down the culture victory, but it's unlikely you'll have enough EP points to use that to any significant level. Also, if you met them, you could perhaps bribe one of the civs to declare war on the one threatening to win with culture.

Edit: One other thing, it might not be the best idea to spread those GGs across many cities. Concentrate them in you Heroic Epic City and maybe one other dedicated to producing mainly units.

Edit2: Just looked at the other save. It seems you still have ample time (the best city is half way through to required culture) to go over there and stir some mayhem. Pericles and Julius are unwilling to declare war on Pacal, but he's got meager military compared to you, so upgrade those city raider Gallic warriors, make a decent SOD and head over there to take his shiny cities. He is researching rifling and will complete it buy the time you get there, but I don't think you should have a problem messing up his plans

 

[Willem]

It's just that when I used to just take over one civ and be happy with that, the other civs seemed to always be ahead.

Chances are that most civs are going to be ahead of you if start taking over some of your neighbours. The AI isn't usually all that expansionist and so doesn't end up with the costs of conquering other civs like you will. But by gaining more cities, in the long run you'll be able to catch up and then pass them. In the last game I played Darius was always ahead of me in tech, and even territory for quite awhile, while I took over my weaker neighbours. But by the Modern age, I had passed him by and then I had enough of a lead that I was able to take him out as well. In the end I was able to vassalize every civ on my continent and could have gone to the other one for a domination victory but decided to go with space race instead. Remember that it's the end of the game that counts. If you're not too far behind by the middle of it, you still have lots of time to catch up. Just don't start taking out everyone at once, settle for one at a time and don't move on until you've consolidated your gains.

 

[Lexicus]

Yep, if one guy is way ahead, start beating up your weak neighbors until you are ahead of him.

And make sure you build up their infrastructure after having stormed their lands.

 

[Genv [FP]]

I see you've eliminated the Chinese, Sitting bull, and the Americans

 

[Zarty]

Orange,

The first thing I noticed is that you're running 20 percnet science rate for no good reason.

Yeh, I didn't notice that for a few turns but I didnt' let it continue for too long. I understand I need to keep on top of that.

If I understood correctly, someone won a culture victory in the game later on. Unfortunately, nothing you can do about it until astronomy, when you get to build some ships that can actually transport troops across the ocean and raze/capture one of the three cities.

Well, I tried again after losing to the cultural victory by loading up the save. I went across and took over the three cities and my military lead made that go to plan. However, the Romans' military was as good as mine and on 'home soil'... They decided to attack and I got completely whacked.

BTW, why haven't' you build any caravels and explored the world and met the civs on the other end of the ocean?

I did that. However, you're right that I could probably have done something to either get in with the Romans or bribe them, etc. The thing I notice though was that the Romans' main cities had a high culture rating too (as well as a powerful military... how?) so all I would have been doing is helping the Romans to win in this case I think.

Edit: One other thing, it might not be the best idea to spread those GGs across many cities. Concentrate them in you Heroic Epic City and maybe one other dedicated to producing mainly units.

Ok. I just thought I could turn out more units in more cities more quickly that way. I built up a pretty big invading force on attempt 2 to take those 3 cities but... got whacked by the Romans... even the archers were killing my Modern Armour despite all the promotions.

Edit2: Just looked at the other save. It seems you still have ample time (the best city is half way through to required culture) to go over there and stir some mayhem. Pericles and Julius are unwilling to declare war on Pacal, but he's got meager military compared to you, so upgrade those city raider Gallic warriors, make a decent SOD and head over there to take his shiny cities. He is researching rifling and will complete it buy the time you get there, but I don't think you should have a problem messing up his plans

Yeh, sounds reasonable. As I said though, when I tried it on attempt 2, I was looking good until Julius attacked.

One thing I still don't understand is that sometimes my military units seem strong and at other times a big stack of them attacking a city get killed by an old lady with a handbag... despite a few promotions I got them by making them in GG city with a barracks.

Zarty

 

[Zarty]

Willem,

Chances are that most civs are going to be ahead of you if start taking over some of your neighbours. The AI isn't usually all that expansionist and so doesn't end up with the costs of conquering other civs like you will. But by gaining more cities, in the long run you'll be able to catch up and then pass them.

Yeh, that's what I thought. In fact, I was way ahead on points anyway. However, having lost to cultural victory initially, I tried again from a saved game and experimented with taking those cities. As I was saying to Orange, it looked like it was going well until Julius slaughtered my units like a knife through butter (despite having similar military tech... modern armour,etc).

Just don't start taking out everyone at once, settle for one at a time and don't move on until you've consolidated your gains.

I'm sure that's right and it's a general message I'm getting here so I'll take that advice onboard. However, I start quite a few games where there are 3 other civs on the continents and they all squeeze my borders quickly. I played another game like this last night. Even trying to beat one of those civs back turned into a marathon with me continiously pumping out units to attack. It just killed my economy while the civs that sat back got themselves into a winning position. I just cut my losses and ended the game... no point in continuing. Sometimes it all works out nicely but most of the time not. This is only on Warlord for goodness sake!?

Zarty

 

[oranges]

Even if Julius kicks you butt for a while on that continent, you should be able to either win space race or kick his butt later on as you have far more land and should both outproduce and out-tech him, thus ending with stronger and more modern military. IRRC, he has no chance of winning with culture, so if you don't feel like warring with him and going for either domination or conquest, tech your way to space race. Even if you lose the cities on the other continent, you should still have a huge advantage.

I'm curious what exactly happened when the lady with the handbag annihilated your stack Did you lose many battles with very high odds in your favor?

 

[Willem]

However, I start quite a few games where there are 3 other civs on the continents and they all squeeze my borders quickly.

Then you may not be building enough Settlers. You need to keep an eye on the other civs and try to keep pace with them. If they start gaining on you for cities, then maybe it would be a good idea to produce Settlers in a couplf of your cites. You should almost always have one on the go somewhere, as long as you economy isn't tanking out.

I played another game like this last night. Even trying to beat one of those civs back turned into a marathon with me continiously pumping out units to attack. It just killed my economy while the civs that sat back got themselves into a winning position. I just cut my losses and ended the game... no point in continuing. Sometimes it all works out nicely but most of the time not. This is only on Warlord for goodness sake!?

You may be giving up too easily. I have that same problem frankly. Like I said, keep in mind that it's the end of the game that counts, you'll still have lots of time to catch up if you're managing your empire properly. In the game I mentioned with Darius, he was always ahead of me both in land and tech. I didn't think I was going to win and I was debating whether to quit or not. But I had the most powerful army on the continent and decided to put it to use. I capitulated 3 of my neighbours and the cities I acquired evened me up to Darius. And I was managing them better so I started catching up to him. By the time I had reached the Modern Era I was ahead of him by a good margin and was able to beat him with better weaponry. Just because a civ is ahead of you now doesn't mean they always will be, if you play your game right.

As for beating off your neighbours, make sure you're picking the right ones to attack and that you're giving yourself enough forces. Choose the weakest and work your way up. You may need to take it slowly at first as well, just capturing a city or two then requesting peace. You don't necessarily want to go in right away and remove the civ completely. Take your time and build up your forces inbetween conflicts.

One more thing, be sure you plan your wars carefully. I presume you're playing with BtS, so send in a Spy to get an idea of what the civ's defences are like. Once you have an idea of his strength, then you can place enough attackers near is borders to counter them. A good rule of thumb is to have a superiority of 3 to 1 when you're attacking a city. Go for his weakest cities first, then hang on to them for awhile in case he sends in a counter-attack to try and take it back. If you survive that, then you know that he probably doesn't have much in the way of units left, and then you can advance again. And try not to get into a long drawn-out conflict. Take a few cities quickly if you don't think you have the strength to move on, and sue for peace after that. Also, wars are the most profitable after you have Feudalism. With that tech you don't have to remove the civ completely, you just have to hurt him enough that he'll be willing to capitulate and become your vassal. In the game I keep referring to, I sent in a huge stack against Churchill to go after a city that was heavily defended, and another smaller stack to take a weaker city. As soon as I declared war, he sent all those defenders against my stack of superior units and suffered horrendous losses because of it. Meanwhile my other stack easily captured the other city. By the second turn I was able to capture the heavily defended city and as soon as I did that Churchill was willing to become my vassal. So after a very short war and only capturing two cities I was able to defeat him.

 

[Zarty]

Thanks for the great feedback everyone. The thing that has been mentioned a few times (and I've certainly been thinking it as well) is that I need to manage things properly to build up into a winning position. I get the feeling I'm doing something wrong with my cities - maybe over developing too many cities or something. Like I said before, the opposing civs often seem to achive a lot more with a lot less land.

Zarty

 

[Willem]

Are you building lots of Cottages? They're crucial in the early game and it's something that alot of struggling players tend to neglect. Go for Pottery early and start building alot of them. They'll really help keep your early expansion going.