Struggling with Spain

[isau]

Well, "struggle" is not quite the word for it, since the game isn't particularly hard. But Spain seems to be in a tight spot at higher difficulties.

Spain's main thing is religion and that's great, except Spain doesn't have anything to assist with actually founding said religion. In fact, Spain may be one of the worst positioned Civs to get a religion compared to much of the competition:

- Russia - Cheaper Holy district
- Japan - Cheaper Holy district
- Arabia - Gets religion free if loses the race
- Egypt - Cheaper districts on rivers, cheaper wonders on rivers
- India - Extra Faith from meeting people who have founded religions assists with buyout
- Brazil - Extra Faith from Rain Forests assists with buyout
- Greece - Access to Wild card that can run Great Prophets
- Aztecs - Builders can rush Holy districts, or chop trees for Wonders
- Rome - Free Monument helps rush through the Policy tree
- Kongo - Just borrow someone else's

So, you're a religion-focused civ with no easy access to religion, what can you do? I'm actually still trying to figure that out. Assume, like my recent game, Arabia is there and Stonehenge disappears on turn 36. That leaves 3 slots to race for. How to keep up without any advantages, without crashing the economy? As I understand it, Inquisitors only work if you are the one who founded the religion, so that Spanish bonus seems at risk much of the time. I guess you could use someone else's religion for Conquistadors, altho assisting them in spreading it everywhere actually seems like a negative of the Consquistador unit.

What adds to this challenge is an atrocious start bias. Often you will start on a flat coastal tile with no river.

How do you overcome all this?

 

[Machiavelli24]

I've yet to go all in at getting a religion on deity (the timing just seems to hard to meet) but if you can't get Stonehenge for a free Religion than the only way it seems you'll be able to do it is if your first district in your capital is a Holy Site and as soon as it is done you do the project for ~20-30 Great Person progress. This may make it tricky to get the normal slingers, builder and settler out at a reasonable time.

 

[Nefelia]

If you are going for Stonehenge, build a warrior or two, then two builders, and then chop away. Otherwise, go with Machiavelli24's advice. If you miss out on the first two great prophets, your chances of getting a religion drop significantly, as the AI plays a rather aggressive religious game. Chopping forests works for the prayer projects as well.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Spain definitely has Civ V Byzantium syndrome. But yeah, I agree with the other posters that Stonehenge (obviously not reliable) or the Holy Site project is the way to go. You're definitely gimping your early game to do this.

 

[Idleray]

Playing as Spain on Immortal... I just eliminated an early nearby rival and now have a whole continental backyard to myself. It seems that playing the early war game will still get you ahead even though I literally had no Civ-specific relevant bonuses to help me and can't really see them coming into play at all.

I play on a Pangaea map, and I'm not sure currently whether there are different continents on Pangaeas. That's most of Spains advantages gone right there.

 

[Browd]

Pangaea usually consists of multiple continents mashed together to form a single land mass. Check the Continent Lens (hotkey to toggle that lens on and off is the number 2).

 

[King Jason]

So I played a standard map on Deity and stacked the deck against myself with Russia, Japan, Arabia, Brazil, India, Greece, Egypt. Basically everyone that should be able to beat me to a religion.

It took me a few tries - Ultimately the biggest problem is Arabia because they mean you're competing for the 2nd to last spot instead of the last. I was getting just barely beat - by the measure of 2-4 turns in every single game such that if Arabia wasn't there I'd at least end up with the last religion. This resulted in me needing to get a religion in 55 turns or under.

I got some bad luck with Horse barbs - which are terrible for anyone to deal with let alone someone who's trying to rush a religion. But ultimately I was able to get 3rd place; The stonehenge and next-highest fellow beat me. Another thing I observed, which seems to work in the players favor - is that Deity Hojo will always take stonehenge if it's available to him. Which essentially negates his strength in the religion rush by taking another, different, stonehenge player off of the board.

One last thing that's very important to mention; I was purposely avoiding Divine spark, which was practically always available to me. I wanted to get this done without the extra GPpt. Having that, however, should practically guarantee a religion if Arabia isn't in the game.

Anyway; tech order was; AH/mining, Astrology, Mining (if it wasn't the first one), then juggle research to defer the cost of the 2nd city's district.

Slinger
Builder
Settler
Holy Site / 2nd city slinger
2nd city holy site
1st city shrine

Then have both cities spam Prayer Projects. Tossing in any additional units if the need arise, but always have at least one city building projects.

Save your gold to buy either a trader or a 2nd builder. The builder is preferable depending on how much production over time you're going to lose waiting for it. With a second builder, you can chop forests - which I'd recommend doing once or twice. With the first builder you may want to save a charge for the a 2nd city production improvement, such as a mine or preferably pasture.

Building a shrine the 2nd city is a waste as you'll likely only build 2 projects, which is worth more than the cost of the shrine - even if you build three, you just about break even.


That's a very barebones strategy that leaves you pretty vulnerable, but I was able to fend off Horse barbs and even A.I. DoWs and still get the religion. As I mentioned, however, If you use Divine spark, which i highly recommend, you should definitely get the religion - certainly so if Arabia isn't in the game. Either both cases give you more breathing room with your build order too - though you can't really predict if Arabia will be in the game or not.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

Yeah, if you play Spain on the Island Plates map, it is definitely easier on the higher levels.

 

[Gehennas]

I am trying Spain too. On Emperor difficuly, however.
My observations are the following:
1. You won't be getting stonehenge for sure. Actually I think the only way of getting it is playing China
2. You will get holy district in a second city late enough for not even trying it.
3. This leaves you mostly dependent on holy site+shrine build time and (most importantly) getting new govement + Mysticism asap.

 

[MadDjinn]

on deity it's a bit of a toss up for 'which' religion you get, not if you get one, based upon which civs are in the game, but even with all of the top religion civs in the game, it really depends on if they can spam holy sites.

I've done religion off just my capital as well as off of a 2 city start similar to what King Jason posted. though, I usually go builder->settler->unit/something for the 2 city approach. Mining first lets you chop the settler if needed due to super low production, or you go animal husbandry and just improve the lands. it just depends on the map.

Getting the first or second religion isn't a plan on deity, even if no one builds Stonehenge (which can still happen on deity).

It's the 3rd or 4th religion you want (4th if Stonehenge, 3rd if not). The AI will always take: Wonder faith founder belief, food from shrines/temples founder belief, Jesuit education, etc, in that order, every game regardless of if it's right for them.

hitting the astrology eureka really helps ensure you get the 3rd one, and if you're lucky, no one ran to medieval era within the first 50 turns. That keeps the cost of the Prophets down. 60 GPp is sometimes possible (no Stonehenge interference) but normally you aim for 120 GPp. If you get stuck with a 240 GPp target for the 4th religion, that's when things go really bad. The AIs greater expansion, as well as their jump into a government, will let them overpower you with 10ish GPp/turn.

otherwise I'm agreed on no shrine in the 2nd city (almost always costs more than the holy site prayers anyways) but definitely in the capital. Divine Spark is 'nice to have' but not needed unless the Campus/theatre district boost part is what you actually want (Ie, culture game) or you are fighting against civs that get to 6+ GPp/turn very early.

Also in this point, don't go God King. if you're plowing into Holy Sites right away, you need production.

Where things get messy is the map. It helps to get a lux that gives either science (faster astrology) or culture (faster to using policies). You also need to drive population growth from turn 1. if you don't grow, you don't get science/culture early game. Just remember to turn to all production before you drive yourself to negative amenities and/or when you are doing the projects.

The bigger benefit to going 2 city holy spam is that you should easily hit early empire (even with bad culture) when you're done getting the religion, so at that point you need to spam settlers from both cities to make up for the delayed start.


edit: quick note about Saladin. Arabia gets a GP even if that means going over the limit for religions. Turn order matters in that case. I had a recent game where I and France tripped over the GPp mark for a prophet on the exact same turn and we both got a GP. Saladin made the 6th religion. 6/5 religions on a standard sized map.

 

[MadDjinn]

I just pulled off a 3 city start with 3 holy sites as Spain. the 2nd city didn't have decent production, so it was a little slow and I had problems getting a builder available for the 3rd city, so it was also slow. If the 2nd and/or 3rd city had better production, I might have gotten the 4th prophet instead of the 5th.