Sufficiency's Tier List (Pangaea)

[Sake]

Sweden: Good luck maintaining all your friends on higher difficulties.

Screw friends, Carolean spam kills pretty much anything and all those great generals can be used to instantly get CS ally (except one ofc). In early game you can still have some friends for extra GP production but Caroleans are the real thing: free march for melee unit is almost as good as free range for range unit.

 

[LoneRebel]

You could play the Earth map. Though that has some kinks in it.

Sorry, I meant the closest one to Earth's actual geography besides Earth itself. Continents resembles Earth while still being random. Then there's also Terra, except that there all civs start on the same main continent.

 

[beetle]

Last Edited: April 24th, 2013…

Very interesting thread! I would like to learn what sort of numbers folks would assign to these tiers.

For the sake of argument, assume a “naked”civ with no UA, UB, UU is a base 100 points. Even forth tier civs have a weak UA, UB, UU, and with rare (but debatable) exceptions, all are better than nothing. Probably one of the three is at least mediocre, so at a minimum that is 1 point for two of them, and 2 points for the third, so 104 points.

On this scale, what kind of point rating do you intuitively think the the “god tier” civs rank? 150? 200? Does a god tier civ really out pace a naked civ significantly?

My guess is that, in the hands of any given player, the civ you start with ultimately only makes 10-20% difference in your final score. But I am quite curious about what others think of this theory!

 

[Seabastian Civ]

Very interesting thread! I would like to learn what sort of numbers folks would assign to these tiers.

For the sake of argument, assume a “naked”civ with no UA, UB, UU is a base 100 points. Even forth tier civs have a weak UA, UB, UU, and with rare (but debatable) exceptions, all are better than nothing. Probably one of the three is at least mediocre, so at a minimum that is 1 point for two of them, and 2 points for the third, so 104 points.

On this scale, what kind of point rating do you intuitively think the the “god tier” civs rank? 150? 200? Does a god tier civ really out pace a naked civ significantly?

My guess is that, in the hands of any given player, the civ you start with ultimately only makes 10-20% difference in your final score. But I am quite curious about what others think of this theory!

If you dig back through the archives, there are excellent discussions about elimination threads that give final rankings for each UA, UU, and UB. If you repurpose those rankings into your system, you could come up with these numbers yourself. The elimination threads are quite subjective and the methodology admittedly flawed, but it's an excellent starting point.

I think Civ choice makes a larger difference than you give it credit for. Ethiopia and England are beasts for domination victories at high difficulty levels. Mongolia, Arabia, and the Huns are unstoppable in domination at medium/low levels. Egypt positively crushes cultural wins on medium/low levels, as do the Byzantines. Choosing a civ that excels at the VC you're aiming for definitely gets you a better score than a civ that is either neutral or ill-suited for that VC.

 

[PDMX]

Why not play Siam? Protect + Aesthetics nullifies the Greek UA.

What is the math behind this?

Free friendship only makes 75% of the normal CS Bonus for Siam. Once Greece got allied and the CS has Greece's religion the influence loss is 0. So Greece gets 100% for free, while Siam gets only 75%.

The other difference is the unique building, which Greece does not have. But the Siamese UB is not that special, besides the Culture bonus.

In the end Siam still has a powerful unique unit. But I like Hoplites aswell.

I would put Greece in the same League as Siam.


Besides that: One up for Persia and Rome, one down for the Celts, their UA is too map dependent. Its not guaranteed at all, when you start within jungle or desert.

 

[Bagi]

Don't get me wrong, Caroleans are very strong. But they are Rifles replacements and by Industrial Era I feel that melee units are far less important.

If Caroleans were Musket replacements I would have placed Sweden one tier above.

Caroleans line up pretty much perfectly with artillery, how is it not the perfect time to go on the offensive?

 

[Unresolved]

Caroleans line up pretty much perfectly with artillery, how is it not the perfect time to go on the offensive?

Calvary are much better suited for offensives with artillery/planes than riflemen are. But Caroleans are a great UU and they definitely can be used in place of Calvary.

 

[Securion]

God Tier; Arabia, China, Babylon, Egypt and Persia.

Crap Tier; Celts, Byzantium and Japan. With Germany getting an honourable mention as well...

IMHO.

 

[tomtom5858]

God Tier; Arabia, China, Babylon, Egypt and Persia.

Crap Tier; Celts, Byzantium and Japan. With Germany getting an honourable mention as well...

IMHO.

With a list like that, you've never played the Byzantines, the Indians, the Koreans, or the Americans

 

[stii]

I've never played America and I'm pretty sure it is terrible

And it isn't even interesting like maybe German can build a massive barbarian army American can see a bit further?


On topic I like,

Austria & Arabia

With Siam, China & Maya being good too

 

[Arachnofiend]

America is actually pretty strong for the Minutemen alone. Do not underestimate the power of Muskets that can rip through rough terrain like its nothing. B-17's are pretty great as well, and Manifest Destiny has some good perks that are better than the ones you would actually think about (being able to meet a city-state by seeing the site rather than having to go and touch the borders, siege units that spot for themselves). The main criticism for America's design for me is that the Minutemen are the only thing that feels really special about the civ, everything else is just doing what anyone else can do but slightly better.

They're definitely not a high tier civ but they're also nowhere near as bad as India.

 

[Unresolved]

America is actually pretty strong for the Minutemen alone. Do not underestimate the power of Muskets that can rip through rough terrain like its nothing. B-17's are pretty great as well, and Manifest Destiny has some good perks that are better than the ones you would actually think about (being able to meet a city-state by seeing the site rather than having to go and touch the borders, siege units that spot for themselves). The main criticism for America's design for me is that the Minutemen are the only thing that feels really special about the civ, everything else is just doing what anyone else can do but slightly better.

They're definitely not a high tier civ but they're also nowhere near as bad as India.

Nothing's as bad as India

But I agree with Byzantines being in the lowest tier.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Nah, I consider them more in the tierless "lol random" category that I put Spain in. Byzantine isn't reliable enough to fit in with the high tiers but if you do get a religion you're guaranteed to have a very strong game, unlike with civs like Denmark or India where, even in their most favorable situations, you would still be better off playing as another civ.

Granted, Spain and the Byzantines have the Conquistadors and Cataphracts which are also excellent UU's. Try completely ignoring the religious game as Byzantium and go straight for Horseback Riding, it works a lot better than you'd think.

 

[Unresolved]

I think that in a tier list like this, you consider how a civilization performs in every difficulty level. A civilization that performs well in Deity will also perform well in lower levels like Prince. The same cannot be said for a civilization that plays well in Prince(Byzantines). Their UU's come too early and have zero synergy with each other. The Dromon is especially useless because there's really not much you can do with it at high levels. Their UA can be good, but is too inconsistent on Immortal and Deity. It's fine on Emperor and lower, but requires faith terrain/CS to perform on Immortal+.

 

[Arachnofiend]

I actually prefer to rate tiers based on the highest level of play (in this case Deity). You seem to have missed my point; basically what I'm saying is that the Byzantines with a desert start are better than India with multiple luxuries in the capital or Denmark in a coastal invasion, so it feels odd to group them together.

 

[Unresolved]

I got it, but I don't really like making a "Luck Tier". I feel like consistency should be a major factor in tiering. Babylon is extremely consistent in getting a science lead, hence them being 'God Tier'. Spain and Byzantine are terribly inconsistent and can't perform in every game. Spain averages out to an okay civilization because they range from mediocre to amazing. Byzantine ranges from mediocre to decent(because their UA is not a game-changer like Spain's).

 

[PDMX]

The additional +gold belief, which Byzantium might get, can be equalled by Macchu Picchu. But that is also random. But Byzantium is not so bad overall. You just have to push hard for getting a religion. As Persia, you will also probably never be able to get Chichen Itza on Diety, which also drops the value of their ability.

The American Unique Ability is only useful for the first 50 or so turns, and its still not even a big deal. I would consider it a near complete loss in later game stages. Their unique units come, when the game is already over, which is sad, it should be changed. I like the unique ability from Civilization revolution, where they get a crazy production bonus on factories. This is atleast more usable, but still very lategame. Yeah, what should you expect from a civilization that did not exist until a couple of 100 years ago. Its all late game. I have played them a few times, and these games were not very special or amazing, It was absolutely exhausting not being beaten by some other runaways on the other end of the world. -> Siam, Korea, etc... Or not being beaten by religion -> Ethiopia...

I think the list in the first post is the most accurate I have seen so far, hence I would not post in here.

 

[Unresolved]

As Persia, you will also probably never be able to get Chichen Itza on Diety, which also drops the value of their ability.

I'm not a fan of Persia, but their UU is pretty nice. It makes meat shields a lot more tanky and a few Immortals will translate nicely to pikemen.