Sufficiency's Tier List (Pangaea)

[iconocast]

Except this is a rounded estimate, factoring in your spawning point.

In the process of making this list, I rolled 30 maps as Spain just to see how often I can find a natural wonder first and get 500 gold in the first 20 turns.

fyi there ua is about the bonus happyness just from FINDING a wonder. settling near one is just iceing on the cake. they are far from a dice roll civ solely dependant on starting near a wonder, its sad ppl cant understand this

 

[sufficiency]

fyi there ua is about the bonus happyness just from FINDING a wonder. settling near one is just iceing on the cake. they are far from a dice roll civ solely dependant on starting near a wonder, its sad ppl cant understand this

Sure, I know that. I've played Spain without any 500g bonuses and won. But if you can find one within 10 turns you basically get a free scout and worker, i.e. Immortal start.

I feel that if Spain does get an early 500g, it is VASTLY superior to any other civs in the game. Without it, Spain is still OK, but definitely not the best out there. I had many debates about where to place Spain already - at the end I feel there needs to be a category just for Spain because no other civs can vary in performance as much as Spain can.

 

[sufficiency]

A gentle bump to the thread with some updates. :3

 

[Moriarte]

France is definitely first tier, imo. I find UA very stable for all types of endeavours, be it culture, domination or science. Finishing tradition/liberty faster than any other civ or making a quick detour to honor for some bumped early game happiness is no problem with this civ and can actually be planned ahead with precision. UU's are just OK, nothing special, yet the musketeer, if beelined, can be very powerful.

Also, Inca, in my opinion, deserve to be among god tier civs. Powerful economy, occasional terrace farms and the hill movement bonus are just crazy good. And the UU (when upgraded to CB can, basically, capture capitals, which are inaccessible with ANY other civ)

Agree on the rest. Good summary, sufficiency.

 

[Unresolved]

Hmm, I'd put Inca in the God Tier. I think India should be bottom tier(or even make a new lowest tier specifically for them). I don't agree with Egypt as First tier, maybe Second Tier. And I think Sweden should be Second Tier. Suggesting that their UA/UU is worse than India's is ridiculous in my opinion. Oh, and I would drop Austria to First Tier.

 

[kirbdog]

Despite the random glowing praise for America, neither their first UA (+1 sight), their second UA (cheaper tiles), their first UU (stronger strength musket), or their second UU (free promo bombers) lets you employ any military strategies that wouldn't work with a completely generic civilization or give you any significant economic, culture, faith, or science benefit. This puts them in the lowest tier (or just above India).

 

[sufficiency]

Despite the random glowing praise for America, neither their first UA (+1 sight), their second UA (cheaper tiles), their first UU (stronger strength musket), or their second UU (free promo bombers) lets you employ any military strategies that wouldn't work with a completely generic civilization or give you any significant economic, culture, faith, or science benefit. This puts them in the lowest tier (or just above India).

But I feel that they do have an edge big enough when compared to, say, Sweden and Japan. +1 sight allows you to find ruins and CS faster, and Minuteman has Drill I and ignores rough terrain penalty (AND it carries over with upgrades).

 

[kirbdog]

But I feel that they do have an edge big enough when compared to, say, Sweden and Japan. +1 sight allows you to find ruins and CS faster, and Minuteman has Drill I and ignores rough terrain penalty (AND it carries over with upgrades).

Japan yes, Sweden no, Sweden has substantial economic/science benefits with their UA.

 

[tomtom5858]

Despite the random glowing praise for America, neither their first UA (+1 sight), their second UA (cheaper tiles), their first UU (stronger strength musket), or their second UU (free promo bombers) lets you employ any military strategies that wouldn't work with a completely generic civilization or give you any significant economic, culture, faith, or science benefit. This puts them in the lowest tier (or just above India).

You know, I actually don't think so. The first UA is incredible early game, allowing your scouts to explore far more efficiently than anyone else. This gives them: culture, gold, faith, science, and food, through various ruins and CS bonuses. Their second UA is deceptively powerful, allowing you to snatch up twice as many tiles early game, meaning you get more luxes and strategic resources early. Their Minutemen are an extraordinary UU, with the rough terrain bonus and free movement allowing the entire line to become far more mobile, which is huge. After all, why are the Keshiks thought of so highly? The B17, too, is a great UU; the free Siege and Interception promotions are great, allowing you to pump out Bombers and Stealth Bombers with Air Repair and being one promotion away from Logistics.

I suspect this come from you not playing the Americans, or at least not properly. The proper way to play them is to more efficiently REX (though not nearly so well as the Dutch) and grab as many ruins as possible through extra sight. They're then meant to wait until late-game to steam-roll the opposition. They're not as good as many others, but they're far from being almost as bad as India.

 

[Unresolved]

Japan yes, Sweden no, Sweden has substantial economic/science benefits with their UA.

And the Carolean is very nice.

 

[kirbdog]

I suspect this come from you not playing the Americans, or at least not properly.

No. I do get that +1 sight can give you a better chance for extra ruins and explores the map faster. This is what makes America a bit better than the worst civ in the game. On the other hand, it is not anywhere close to the kind of benefit that, say, Spain gets, because it reduces the luck involved with ruins instead of giving you a lot more with good luck. An improvement to odds still leaves you dependent on luck, and it never gives spectacular results that you couldn't have without it.

I do get that the UU's are not useless, but there's literally no war that you would win with them that you could not without them. I do understand that it's fun to build bombers that get free siege/interception and minutemen. But that's about it. Other unique units like the chu-ko-nu, camel archer, longbow, and keshik actually can help win otherwise unwinnable wars (i.e., without teching to more advanced units).

Trying to claim that the gold savings on buying tiles is actually even worth talking about as a substantial benefit doesn't really recommend itself.

Granted, a completely generic civ itself is very powerful, but when it comes to comparisons, there are so many benefits you can get with your civ choice that would actually make your game dramatically better.

 

[LoneRebel]

Soooo, what happened to "OMG Greece is the most OP civ in the game pls nerf"? I'm guessing it's Pledge + Aesthetics?

Also, last I heard Japan was pretty high tier. Spamming Samurai was supposed to be really powerful in the medieval era. What changed?

 

[ds61514]

Soooo, what happened to "OMG Greece is the most OP civ in the game pls nerf"? I'm guessing it's Pledge + Aesthetics?

Also, last I heard Japan was pretty high tier. Spamming Samurai was supposed to be really powerful in the medieval era. What changed?

When Civ 5 first came out, Greece & China were considered top. This is because horseman were horrendously OP, and Greece & China had the best horse units.

Once horseman got nerfed, Greece plummeted.

 

[Matthew.]

Changes to Bushido and combat system combined with meta game switching from horses (on release) to swords and now to composite bows. If you are sniping out everything before it gets to you, Bushido has no effect.

I have a terrible memory, but I recall the sword line in general being a bit easier to exploit in vanilla. Now you are forced to go through Civil Service for Education anyway, and pikes were buffed in G&K so it is often easier/better to just rely on pikes if you need any meat shields and ignore the sword line until later. Unfortunately, Civs like Japan, America, Ottomans, etc. kind of took a hit because of it.

 

[tomtom5858]

Greece & China had the best horse units.

China was considered one of the best because it had a XBow unit that came with Logistics, they generated gold from Libraries, and made GGs some faster and provide double effects, creating something horrendously powerful. Unless I'm missing something, China hasn't used mounted units, historically, and thus wouldn't have them in CiV.

 

[Matthew.]

He meant back when vanilla was released a common Deity strategy was just to rush horsemen and overwhelm the AI. They had no penalty against cities and had higher base combat strength. China was good in that sense in that they got early gold from paper makers and an extra +15% combat strength from great generals. Chu's were just icing on the cake.

 

[GhostSalsa]

When Civ 5 first came out, Greece & China were considered top. This is because horseman were horrendously OP, and Greece & China had the best horse units.

Once horseman got nerfed, Greece plummeted.

I've ranted against the G&K pikemen's domination of classical units all year, so I definitely get why Greece's UU's are less exploitable.

But it's a matter of turn range. Horsemen can only be taken advantage of for a tiny 10-turn stretch. By planning that 10-turn conquest and pairing with the strong spearmen, Greece can bag a strong neighbor on Immortal more easily than others.

I still find the Greek UA incredible. With influence-drain nullified, you continuously grow your CS bars throughout the game without spending anything. You can win Diplo on turn 295 even if your conquest and economy mid-game were sluggish. Yes I've gotten ally-manopolies with other civs but it was while already being on top economically.

This is more relevant on Continents, when Diplo is the most appealing way to wrap up a game when you don't feel like swimming your army across an ocean. My only disappointing game with Greece was when my continent didn't have any wonder-hoarders on it.

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Uh, yeah Sipahi are great, especially via Military CS. I've made other civ capitals look like a nuclear bomb hit them.

 

[tomtom5858]

Uh, yeah Sipahi are great, especially via Military CS. I've made other civ capitals look like a nuclear bomb hit them.

I wouldn't say that the Sipahi is bad, but they are sub-par because they replace the Lancer. I don't use Lancers. Ever. They're terrible units. I'd rather have the Cavalry, because they have 34 strength against everything, not just mounted units. Also, look at the second bit of your first sentence there, "especially via Militaristic CS." There's something else: despite having a fantastic other UU, the Sipahi don't make it worth it to play the Ottomans.

 

[Light Cleric]

Why do people tunnel vision the friendship part of Sweden's UA and call them bad because of it?!

You're using Sweden to beat people up, generate Generals/steal Prophets to give to city-states for 90 influence, get your Caroleans out for free March Rifles->GWI->Infantry, repeat. If you're warmongering, you can still have 1-2 consistent friends until you kill them, at which point you won the game.

Friendship is not the focal point of the UA; making people fear the beard is.

He meant back when vanilla was released a common Deity strategy was just to rush horsemen and overwhelm the AI. They had no penalty against cities and had higher base combat strength. China was good in that sense in that they got early gold from paper makers and an extra +15% combat strength from great generals. Chu's were just icing on the cake.

Man, think about how many times China has been nerfed since vanilla lol. GG strength nerf, GG generation nerf, CKN nerf, iirc TWO Paper Maker nerfs(at least one). And yet they're still awesome

 

[VilePilot]

byzantium might be top tier on pangea if you can get desert folklore. I haven't messed with the religion mechanic yet, but getting two +gold beliefs could be incredibly powerful.


Civ is also such an incredibly complex game that there are probably strategies that are game breakingly effective with any civ, but I could be wrong maybe that's just wishful thinking.