Suggested Balancing Changes for upcoming Release [OBSOLETE]

[raystuttgart]

My recommendations would be to ... We need to limit ...

That is not the first time we discuss the same topic in this forum if I remember correctly.

To summarize:

• It is about "fast paying but long term inefficient strategies for MP games" vs. "more investing but more long term efficient strategies for SP games".)
• It is about reducing good luck and also reducing bad luck. (Good in MP Games to ensure equivalent start changes but boring in Singleplayer because all games will play the same.)
• It is also a lot about personal taste for MP games. There are also MP players that like asymmetric balance, challenging start and a lot of luck component.

I can give you the same answer again:

• We will not change the balancing of this game to make it more fun in MP games for the price of reducing fun in SP games.
• And we will not change the balancing of this game now after so many years for the personal taste of one or a few players.

I have heard and understood your arguments and from your perspective they are even valid.
But also please undestand that they are not necessary valid for other perspectives.

This endless repeating of personal opinions and personal taste does not help anybody ...
Seriously you just waste your time because I am not that old yet to forget what was written and explained a few days ago ...

Summary:

You have gotten your answer already last time from a team member.
In your private version you are absolutely free of course to configure and play everything you want.

 

[solvito]

What an agressive reply to a proposal for balancing, you are always free to ignore proposals. I am not a new player, I just recently started posting only to try and help with bug reporting.

My proposal is not only aimed at MP but SP as balance is not something thought for one aspect of the game only. Different paths to victory makes the game more fun to play and it makes it last longer.

Clearly this is your game, and you are not open to different views/proposals. I am now no longer surprised about the constant rotation of collaborators you have.

"These endless repeating of personal opinions and personal taste does not help anybody ..." . you clearly cannot add up properly as posting something only 2 times (the second one being in a proposals post) is not "endless repeating". That would explain why the amount of OOS this game has, you are bad at math

.You are a rude person, Don't worry this will be my last post on this forum.

 

[raystuttgart]

What an agressive reply to a proposal for balancing, ...

I told you already that form your point as MP gamer you have valid arguments. (also see above)
So it is not about "the content" of your proposal.

It is that you waste our time by starting the same discussion again, although the answers explaining why we will not do that should not have been difficult to understand.

You are a rude person.

Sorry if you feel that I am rude.

But yes I simply get annoyed by such "repetition posts" - because we get them all the time by people trying to force their personal taste.
So please excuse if I did not formulate nicely. I was trying to explain and tell you very openly and honestly a second time what I think about that suggestion.

... you are always free to ignore proposals.

No sorry, because then these endless discussion will simply continue and team members and community members will waste their time.
What is so difficult about simply accepting an answer already given by a team member - just a few days ago?

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Summary:

Sorry for my reaction.
But please also try to understand why.

 

[Derek Brown]

What an agressive reply to a proposal for balancing, you are always free to ignore proposals. I am not a new player, I just recently started posting only to try and help with bug reporting.

Clearly this is your game, and you are not open to different views/proposals. I am now no longer surprised about the constant rotation of collaborators you have.

Solvito - Ray gives matter of fact answers and has solid principles - there's a good reason for what they do in the game and same for how they handle communication on this forum. I wouldn't taken it personal. I would have thought it to have been more rude if no one answered your second post rather than take the time to break down the reasoning. I think they have a pragmatic reason for people not to continue on after getting a NO so they keep down the chatter to what is actionable. With anything they do they'll have 60% of people liking it and 40% of people hating it. But they've built an impressive mod despite that situation. They couldn't have done that by being 'nice' to everyone, they just have to be very unemotional and calculating about what they do as the mod team has tenets each improvement has to fulfill. Lastly, I don't think he's trying to get you off the forum, just to channel your energy into other areas. If you look back at the post, he's teaching you some how they think so you can better make suggestions.

 

[raystuttgart]

Ray gives matter of fact answers and has solid principles.

See guys, you might not always be happy with the way I act and communicate.
I fully understand that but I also believe it is necessary that somebody sometimes is the "bad guy" - if nobody else does.

But also please understand:

We need to find a common direction for WTP and we also need to make decisions at some point.
Thus somebody sometimes may need to bring an end to useless and fruitless discussions that just are "my personal taste" vs. "your personal taste".

Not everybody can and will get his personal taste fulfilled because our community is too big to fulfill everybodies personal taste.
Thus for the mod WTP we team members try to listen to community but also act kind of like a last insitution of actual decisions.

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Compare it to a democracy with a parliamentary government:

Community as majority is asked by the team considering certain concepts (and may vote in polls).
We team members act as "government" and "executive" for WTP that try to carry out the will of community as majority the way we think it will work best.

Becomig part of the "government" (team) however is only possible by showing long term dedication and reliability.
It is also only possible if you share our "democratic believes" - the rules and vision we have as a the team.

This is to what we have commited:

• Nothing shall be forced into WTP core mod against the will of community. (Majority Vote)
• Nothing shall be forced into WTP core mod against "government consense". (Team Member Veto Right)
• Only people that have proven their long term commitment and reliability get part of the WTP core team.
  
• No team member can be forced in any way to work on things he does not like, so we often need to make compromises.
  
• Each team member however still is a free modder (human being) that can implement things for his private mod. (Personal Freedom)

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It is a simple and fair system actually.

I understand that single community members are not always happy with it, if their personal taste is not fulfilled.
But what is the alternative I may ask? Not do anything because we are not able to make decisions anymore?

I also had to accept several times that team or community rejected some of my ideas to become part of WTP core mod.
It is simply the only reasonable and polite way to then not continueing to insist on it anways.

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So what about "freedom of speech" you may ask?

Go ahead and share your ideas freely but create your own threads for your own ideas.
I usually answer there only once - usually very friendly - and then afterwards fully ignore ideas I do not share because I would afterwards just repeat myself.

But if you have gotten an answer already, please do not try to slip your ideas in "team working threads" again.
Because then myself or another team will have to answer you a second time without any benefit.

All I do not like is trying to hijack other threads and endless repeating of personal tastes all over the forum.
This is just trying to push your personal taste into the mod without any willingness to invest effort of your own.

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Summary:

Maybe you understand a little bit better now, how we as a team work.
We simply can not always make everybodies personal taste come true ...

 

[modmod]

This is to what we have commited:

• Nothing shall be forced into WTP core mod against the will of community. (Majority Vote)
• Nothing shall be forced into WTP core mod against "government conse". (Team Member Veto Right)
• Only people that have proven their long term commitment and reliability get part of the WTP core team.
  
• No team member can be forced in any way to work on things he does not like, so we often need to make compromises.
  
• Each team member however still is a free modder (human being) that can implement things for his private mod. (Personal Freedom)

That was quite a time for me to figure it out as well.

WTP team have a certain vision/ goals/ principles/ direction - can be called a shared "personal taste".
All stuff which can get into WTP mod (changes, new content) must share the same goals/ vision/ principles.

Team members can veto on "how it made", community can vote "will it made in that way or not".
Folks asked on: concepts/ systems -> not on what those concepts aim to achieve.

But as soon as any recommendation/ idea DO NOT share the same vision/ goals/ principles/ direction dismissed with a "no"/ "this is your personal taste", same true for disagreement which based on goals/ fundamental belief.

Discussion possible only on "how we achieve the goals" NOT on the goals themselves.

Folks asked on:
- How to achive something (with a certain system, or a different, or another one).
- NOT asked on what a certain system aim to do/ what is the desired outcome.

It is for sure pointless to:
Publish an idea/ recommend (which have different goals), or argue on principles.
That will be dismissed with a no/ it is your personal taste no matter what.

So with the "democracy + government" example:
For example conservatives and liberals in most cases WILL NOT agree on goals/ vision/ principles.
Yet they use the same systems - like governmental spending, but that is different: what they want to do with it.

It is also only possible if you share our "democratic believes" - the rules and vision we have as a the team.

So for the ones who have different believes, vision, goals, principles:
1. Do not use WTP mod/ use a different one.
2. If you ready to mod: make different one by using a same system -> but for different goals/ outcome.
Means: another mod. With the same skeleton, but different meat on bones.
3. Search for people who have similarly different believes, vision, goals, principles (which are more or less the same), probably there will be modders too. So then a new mod can be made for that part of the community who have different believes, vision, goals, principles, or disagreed with certain changes/ new content.
Then it is not an own/ personal modmod, but a mod for a part of the community.

But accept the fact:
Nothing will be changed/ get into the WTP mod which is against their goals/ vision.
They have their own.
I have learned it.

 

[raystuttgart]

Nothing will be changed/ get into the WTP mod which is against their goals/ vision.

Absolutely correct.

There is no way to force anything into the mod if only one single team member rejects.
We will however ask communit majority as well (by poll) so it can keep things out of the mod.

We never lied about that and we never made a secret of it.
Because if we did anything else our team members would leave and WTP would be dead.

So for the ones who have different believes, vision, goals, principles:

That is why we always said: Everybody is free to use our mod to create a modmod.

Then it is not an own/ personal modmod, but a mod for a part of the community.

It is a mod for the WTP team itself and for the part of the community that likes WTP.

That will be dismissed with a no/ it is your personal taste no matter what.

Sorry man, I try to discuss and explain usually but not if somebody tells me "Your doing it all wrong!"
I am still a free modder as I said and nobody - absolutely nobody - can force me to implement something I do not like.

I have learned it.

Thanks.

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Summary:

You are free to take what you are given for free.
If you do not want to have it simply refuse it.

You are free to share your opinion and give feedback.
But please simpy also accept the answers of the people that actually invest their effort.

If you like what we do, you are welcome to join our efforts.
If you do not, feel free to use our work to create your own modmod.

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So can we now continue modding again please?
Maybe we have finally clarified that we are free modders that share voluntarily and not a company paid by customers.