Suggestion: Remove chariots

[copx]

I would like to congratulate you on your decision to resist the "lets add more cool stuff" urge and be bold enough to actually remove features. Too many mods end up being a mess, almost impossible to balance and full of bugs because the developers just add any random "cool thing" they can think of.

I would like to suggest another removal: chariots

Reasons:

1. Game play: they are too similar to knights.

2. Immersion: they make no sense. They disappeared from the battlefields as soon as people had horses strong enough to carry an armed man. They are not competitive against later mounted units (in the real world). Seeing a war chariot from around 2000BC assault a medieval knight and actually win just feels / looks wrong.

 

[Kael]

Its a very interesting idea, I've started an alliteritive poll to get feedback.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Nooo!!! Cutting cool stuff should be condemned, not congratulated. I'm still upset about loosing the Compassion civics, the Education civics, and The Core of the Subtle, The Eternal Flame, the Forest Stealth, the disciple cycle, advanted temples, and so much more.



I think that chariots and real mounted units should be differentiated more, possibly even split into seperate unitcombats whose upgrade paths never cross, but not eliminated.

 

[copx]

Another - very minor, cosmetic - reason: At least at the resolution I use (1024x768) the "Trade" tech box in the tech tree "overflows" i.e. it unlocks so much stuff that all the related icons don't fit into the box of the tech. Removing chariots would solve this issue.

 

[Justicar333]

Granted, I've not delved much into chariot game mechanics. Basically an early hard hitting unit, knights come much later in the game. Particullary for those of us that play on slower game speeds. Plus you only get 4 knights.

 

[Ringtailed]

The problem with removing chariots is that the mounted line is already weak. Taking away chariots and particularly war chariots makes the situation worse.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Another - very minor, cosmetic - reason: At least at the resolution I use (1024x768) the "Trade" tech box in the tech tree "overflows" i.e. it unlocks so much stuff that all the related icons don't fit into the box of the tech. Removing chariots would solve this issue.

This issue could however just as easily be solved by making Rathas require the tech that founds their prerequisite religion instead of a tech that is a prerequisite to that.

 

[Fafnir13]

Nooo!!! Cutting cool stuff should be condemned, not congratulated. I'm still upset about loosing the Compassion civics, the Education civics, and The Core of the Subtle, The Eternal Flame, the Forest Stealth, the disciple cycle, advanted temples, and so much more.

Amen brother.

Cutting stuff helps you reach a finished product certainly, but the loss of depth needs to be balanced against it. The loss of the compassion civics is what's got me the most flustered right now. Those things needed improvement to make them unique and useful. Instead I've now got sacrifice the weak cluttering up an already crowded civic section. Makes playing an evil Bannor rather difficult...

 

[Pike the Hands]

It's not about finishing early, it's about simplifying options to leave only the ones that are truly interesting. When designing anything, every additional element added also carries a cost, even if that cost is simply that the player has to remember it and account for it. Everything MC mentioned I believe was a good idea to cut; they simply didn't add enough to be worthwhile.

 

[Neomega]

But chariots have that biblical ancient feel to them. There are quite a few mentions of them, and I think according to the bible, God himself has one.

 

[Fafnir13]

Well, the people at the time were able to easily equate chariots with power. It was the example they could understand. Saying things about a flaming Abrams tank wouldn't have meant much, even though it's power would be substantially more than a similarly outfitted chariot.

It's not about finishing early, it's about simplifying options to leave only the ones that are truly interesting. When designing anything, every additional element added also carries a cost, even if that cost is simply that the player has to remember it and account for it. Everything MC mentioned I believe was a good idea to cut; they simply didn't add enough to be worthwhile.

And what is not interesting about chariots? Extra civics? Late game buildings? I like having more stuff to play with rather than less.
Keeping it to chariots specifically (for the sake of the thread) I understand what they are providing for me. I want them for what they provide. Take them away and I am left with horsemen and horse archers which are not providing what I need or what I want for my particular style of play.
That would leave me running almost exclusively metal line troops with the usual religious support. An okay strategy, but rather boring as that's what I did before I discovered chariots. Not what I'd want to happen.

 

[Pike the Hands]

Two mounted lines, one of which is far superior to the other because of metals. Otherwise, no real difference except that conceptually chariots are kind of lame for reasons mentioned. Give horsemen metals and suddenly they're more viable units, and no longer are there good-mounted units and boring-mounted units.

I like having more stuff rather than less too, believe me. But only if the more stuff is as fun and good and sexy as the stuff I already have.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

But chariots have that biblical ancient feel to them. There are quite a few mentions of them, and I think according to the bible, God himself has one.

"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
- Judges 1:19

Clearly, chariots with iron weapons should get +1000% against avatar.

Anyway, I don't mind removing features, in general. I'm hoping that we'll see a few new interesting things get added, even if we're pretty much feature locked at this point, but that's definitely not going to happen if we already have a bunch of mediocre units and wonders cluttering up the game.

 

[Blackmantle]

It's not about finishing early, it's about simplifying options to leave only the ones that are truly interesting. When designing anything, every additional element added also carries a cost, even if that cost is simply that the player has to remember it and account for it. Everything MC mentioned I believe was a good idea to cut; they simply didn't add enough to be worthwhile.

So you are proposing cutting Horse Archers and Knights? If you should I'm all with you. Otherwise I'm strongly against it. Very strongly.

I find it a hard time anyone has "reality issues" in a fantasy game... (and that seems one of the more commonly used arguments. Remember mechanics first, flavor second, balance third... )

If Horse Archers and knights are the problem (as in being to weak compared to chariots, which i would agree with), by all means improve them (they badly need it.).
If anything reduce the chariots' withdraw chance by 10%. Anything else would kill any! use for the mounted line except for the very few units (mostly horsemen) and a rare few civs (mostly the very aggressive ones/ Hippus and the nations/leaders with the defender trait...).
And that would be very sad indeed.

Because its one of the less interesting lines already (in fact it seems overall the weakest of the 3 regular military lines even with Chariots and War Chariots...
Edit: Archery is so far off in the back, it still shouldn't be even a contender hence me missing them. Still sorry for listing the wrong number.).
Would axing chariots make FFH2 a more fun game for the majority of players? I strongly doubt it (i doubt even many of the players in favor of the change really put much thought / experience into the consequences but sure i may be wrong and I'm strongly biased on the matter, I give you that.).


Its rather sad to hear Kael has issues with Chariots in the game. Both the AI and me seem utterly fine with them in terms of power / mechanics (the AI is! fond of withdrawl/flanking promotions for mounted units)... (and that while some dull civs like Doviello didn't got / won't get improved due to feature lock even if the verdict from the community both in terms of missing favor and most hate was beyond doubt, that doesn't seem to count for painful cuts.
So feature lock seems very relative...)

If Kael has heavy changes in mind (like cutting armored cavalry + stirups techs and moving horse archers / knights to trade / warhorses [which might make sense to a degree] i would like to hear about it before giving an opinion / verdict on the matter. But as it is with just cutting chariots announced i can't see a good side to it...)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

1. Shadow will introduce equipment. The Clan of Embers has a relic called the Eternal Flame (you knew that wasn't gone forever didnt you), instead of a wonder its an equipment that provides its owner with 1 free fire mana. But the relic has to be earned, players who get the Clan victory trophy will cause the Clan (either AI or human) to start with the Eternal Flame..

I thought Kael was going to reintroduce the Eternal Flame. What ever happened to that idea? Is it still going to happen? If not, then I'm definitely going to implement it as a fire mana producing and requiring wonder that can be built by anyone if the Clan isn't in the game, but is given for free in Braduk the Burning otherwise.

 

[Kael]

I thought Kael was going to reintroduce the Eternal Flame. What ever happened to that idea? Is it still going to happen? If not, then I'm definitely going to implement it as a fire mana producing and requiring wonder that can be built by anyone if the Clan isn't in the game, but is given for free in Braduk the Burning otherwise.

The are no plans to require players to earn trophies before items are unlocked. We had that for a while (at one point tyou have to earn a certain amount of trophies before you were able to play the Sidar or Svartalfar). In the end we decided it was frustrating for the player, and would likely lead to a lot of people WB'ing victories and anger if we lost trophies in an upgrade (which we already have).

 

[far_wanderer]

My feeling on this is that Chariots/Horsemen and War Chariots/Knights should become the same unit, just for different civilizations (Like Axemen/Swordsmen now). That way all the thematic elements are still there for the appropriate civs, but there aren't so many almost-identical units cluttering up the build menu.
Another option would be to still do that, but in addition create a dedicated Horse Archer line that is lighter and more mobile, as well as keeping defensive bonuses and getting defensive strike. That frees up the War Chariot/Knight to be tweaked as a heavy hitter with less of a withdrawal chance (Knights being too courageous and War Chariots being not all that maneuverable), with the new unit line more optimized for pillaging, emergency reinforcements, and a high withdrawal chance. Is it possible to give a unit defensive bonuses on flat ground? Because that would make a lot of sense flavor-wise for mounted archers and give them a niche that nothing else fills yet. It would look something like this:
Horseman/Chariot - same as Horseman now
Horse Archer - Requires Horseback Riding and Archery, 3 move, 5 strength. 30% withdrawal chance, defensive strike as Archer, can receive defensive bonuses. -25% in cities, 20% defense bonus on open ground.
Cavalry - Upgrade for Horseman available at Stirrups. 3 move, 7/5 strength. 20% withdrawal chance, no defensive bonuses.
Escort Cavalry - Horse Archer upgrade at Warhorses. 4 move, 9 strength. 40% withdrawal chance, defensive strike as longbowman,can receive defensive bonuses. -25% in cities, 20% defense bonus on open ground.
Knight/War Chariot - Upgrade for Cavalry at Armored Cavalry. 3 move, 12/8 strength. 15% withdrawal chance, no defensive bonuses. +25% against Melee and Archery.

The Knight line would use weapons, the archer line would not.

 

[zugzugdaaboo]

I would like to congratulate you on your decision to resist the "lets add more cool stuff" urge and be bold enough to actually remove features. Too many mods end up being a mess, almost impossible to balance and full of bugs because the developers just add any random "cool thing" they can think of.

Amen. Plus more complexity means dumber AI. Programing an AI to handle complexity is hard.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo Da Vinci.

George