suomipeli

[sampsa]

Umm.. I don't know why are you referring to SGTOM

This:

Btw, I was thinking of joining to SGOTM with this team if they're interested. We'll play this first so we could be ready for #19.

but here is a couple of questions: Why are we focusing to GP? I don't know why shoild we pop them in all cities.. Why GA? Whe was talking about GA, we wanted to build GS before? What is our tech tree like? Could you give us screenshot after your turnsets? Hmm.. I'm just a bit confused now, and I don't know our long target plan.

OK, they are good questions and I can shed some light:

- we are focusing on since it's the fastest way to get the tech we want: astronomy. It's a key tech, as we want to meet all the AIs to abuse them. GS lightbulb gives ~1500 which is a helluva lot, so you should focus on anyway, usually to win liberalism. Here we are planning to win quickly so liberalism is unnecessary. We don't have much use for the techs that lead to it (paper, education) as they are not military techs

- we are popping 4 from 3 cities: Timbuktu (has GLib+NE), Djenne and Eridu (because they are big and have a good -resource. 3 cities do it faster than one and speed is the essence. No reason to do something slowly if you can do it quickly

- GA=golden age

- I didn't spam screenshots, as everyone can download the game and look. Nothing interesting happened on my turn-set anyway...

This turn-set is a bit micro-heavy and I'm used to doing things properly (for me it's the only way to enjoy from the game ). Winning on emperor is not a challenge for this team anyway, winning by intercontinental conquest by 1500 AD might be a challenge.

I did mention our long-term plan in some post: war with trebs+stuff. Engineering is the last tech we really need to pull off this strategy, but of course if we have teching power we should tech something (nationalism for Taj Mahal?)

 

[Robert FIN]

OK, thanks, that helped a lot! No headache anymore ! I know that I mentioned SGOTM b4 but I don't know why are you talking about it.. Do you wanna join there after this or no??

 

[sinimusta]

Was a bit busy yesterday, so I didn't play it yet. And had to wait for some posts too.

I'm planning to start the GA in 2 and grow Djenne to 12.

Forge is a great building, but it costs 120 - with +25% discount that is 96. A forge gives 7 extra for each pop whipped, so needs 96/14= ~7 2-pop whips before paying itself back. I suppose they will pay themselves back, but building a forge everywhere will slow down our attack date. Just something to think about, I don't really know what is optimal.

True. However currently we lack the tech to build trebs and phants, our future main stack composition. Forges don't cost unit maintenance, though certainly not worth it in our weakest cities.



Off-topic (my first deity win, that's the save):

Spoiler :

Won my first deity game last night. It was though on marathon speed, so not so standard settings and probably helped to get win date so early. Buffy-mod.

Played as Isabella. Early I managed to grow 4 cities and captured one barb city which spawned on my planned city site. My neighbour in south was Rome, and west Freddy. Then Justitian (Rob's archvillain or something) attacked me which was a surprise since he was pleased at me and we were in the same faith. Luckily his stack was mainly chariots and spears with a couple of axes. He took my southern city Sevilla. I beat them with chopping and whipping axes and managed to take it back.

So after not so promising start I saw an opportunity in sout. Rome was strong but was attacked by Vikings and France and Rome had built a lot of wonders including the mids. With construction and phants I took form Rome I took the best part of Rome and left some tundra for him. I didn't want to cap him since Ragnar would have hated me for that. With mids I switched to Rep and started to runs Spec economy (mostly).

My western neighbour was Freddy, who was also a wonderwhore (built the GLH) this game and not a unit spammer. So I got lucky in this game with wonders and diplo sit. Freddy was also hindu, a minority religion this game. But he had an ok stack. So I took his border city, left it with one defender and I got his main stack to that city.With my cr cats and other army I crushed them, I took his best cities and capped him. It's funny how it's almost the best situation for a fight to attack a city.

Then I went for the lib, with my ep on Ragnar I saw that I won by 1 turn. Apparently he didn't like it since he attacked me (he was friendly but had been plotting.) And china and France joined him. I defeated two viking stacks near the wonder-city of Rome but then chinese came and my stack wasn't healed. I bought some time by sacrificing the city and took it back with healed troops, thanks to my supermedic Rommel. Then I went for the offensive, took some viking cities, but noticed that medieval warfare is slow and bloody with castles and hill cities. So I took peace and teched to conqs. After them it was a slaughterfest.

.

 

[sampsa]

Final comments about -micro: Don't create more than enough -points in Eridu/Djenne. After Djenne has generated it's give corn to Timbuktu. Timbuktu must generate as much -points as possible during the GA. Delaying the last GS is a direct delay on astro.

You are going to switch to slavery-vassalage-(org rel?) on the final turn of the GA, right? Org rel in parenthesis, since both paganism and pacifism make some sense. Theocracy would be the best, but we can't have it.

Good job on the maranoob deity! No "speed-cheating" next time!

Edit: since we have -points towards Hat, we might as well use them. Steal theology soon after the GA?

 

[sampsa]

OK, thanks, that helped a lot! No headache anymore ! I know that I mentioned SGOTM b4 but I don't know why are you talking about it.. Do you wanna join there after this or no??

Well, not sure how much you've been following SGOTM. It's really (micro-)intense and demanding. Go through some of the past Plastic Ducks threads (download saves etc) if you want to learn btw.

 

[Robert FIN]

@capitano: Congratulations!! Justinian must be punished everytime you see him in the game, he is unthrustworthy maggot! Good job! @Sampsa: Oh, you thought that I get headache from micro again? Well, actually micro is nice, but I just couldn't follow your plans last day. I didn't understand why are we doing thing x. Now I'm back!

 

[sinimusta]

T130-140:

Started the ga ater 2 turns of growth. Got 3 GS during golden age and bulbed (not bulped) mach and optics. I did reinforce our army with cats, xbows and phants. I noticed egypt was teching calendar so I decided to get hbr for elephants. I made 3 caravels to find the other continents asap. We'll have (probably) another GS in 4 turns.

We also have now some intel about hatty's troops. There aren't any large offensive stacks with lot of collateral anywhere (as we can expect, since she hasn't been plotting on anyone), but she is upgrading her archers to longbows.

 

[sampsa]

Great! Grand strategy is the important thing and it seems we are doing good in that department. Now we can meet and conquer new civilizations as soon as we have enough units and enough galleons to transport them. Capping Hatty first is probably a good idea.

I see that you chose to build cottages around the new city in the west (Ur).

Why cottages suck:

A cottage produces +1 immediately, +2 in 10 turns, +3 in 30 turns and +4 in 70 turns.

A farm produces +1 immediately.

A 2-pop whip from size 4 produces 60. When you have a granary the food required to grow from size 2 to size 4 is (24/2+26/2=25). So one =2,4. In a normal situation >, unless your commerce is very weak and you need to tech many techs.

Cottages are good when:

1) built early, so that you have several towns by 1 AD
2) in a bureaucratic capital for +50%
3) you are financial
4) you have many -multiplyers

In our situation, imo farms win by a mile. It doesn't matter that much though, it's just a detail but I wanted to bring this to everyone's attention.

 

[Robert FIN]

^^ What? You are telling us that we shouldn't build cottages for ? I don't get it. Are you telling that -> are more important than -> at this stage?

 

[sinimusta]

Well got to admit that's true. If engineering is the last tech we really need yep hammers are far more important.

Someone on the other continent has already philo since we didn't get taoism. So it seems our continent is a little backwards. Though in civ pure prod power can dominate a little more advanced enemies.

Next would be Jouzous turnset. We'll probably find the other continents during it and it might raise some trade opportunities and we get info about the diplo sit. Also borders should be opened immediately for trade routes which we'll get soon with astro double bulb.

 

[Robert FIN]

Yeah, Jouzou's turn, I'm still a bit busy here! I have to edit my class's school project movie since I'm the only one in IT lessons there. As reward I don't need to be actor ! Well, back to business, I just finished watching TMIT's IU Mao LP and it prooved that Rifles can fight against tanks! Just whip, whp, whip units!! I assume that we go for conquest. The vassals can tech for us. Just destroy the other civilizations one by one and achive the world conquest! IU Mao lets play was awesome! Check it out, its long but worth it.

 

[sampsa]

^^ What? You are telling us that we shouldn't build cottages for ? I don't get it. Are you telling that -> are more important than -> at this stage?

Yes, that's what I'm telling - non-financial cottage is a weak improvement. >> is something you should remember and also understand. (">" is used as a mathematical term here, meaning that 1 is better than 1 etc.)

> is easy to explain - you can convert food to hammers via slavery gaining +2 per .

> is not that clear and somewhat depends on the situation. One way to convert to is via failgold. In our game with marble+org rel we generated 2,25 per , an indication that >.

In our current position is almost redundant, all we need is enough to build a winning army.

 

[Robert FIN]

OK, tell me your countings towards <!

 

[sampsa]

If you are being serious, > and > already prove that.

In practice, you can transform food into gold by putting whip overflow into wonders and never finishing the wonder. Another way is . The first costs less than 100 and is worth at least 1000.

 

[Robert FIN]

Okay, cool. Just wanted to see the value of those features. Thanks.

 

[Jouzou]

Looks like I don't have any big decisions to make. I guess I'll just keep building military. Ur and Nibru need garrison units, though. And a couple of missionaries to spread the good word of Yhwh. I'm also planning to whip Ziggies in places that don't have them yet (except cap). I assume Moai statues don't do us any good anymore, especially since there's no stone on the entire continent.

Tech-wise, I'll let engineering finish and double-bulb Astro (unless the game screws us over with an artist at 5% odds, of course). Civil Service would seem the most natural tech choice after Eng is finished: Maces to add to our military and irrigation to help with the food. Considering our military spam, we might want to stay in Vassalage civic, however. It's a long haul before we get there, anyway.

Do we need any more great people after the next GS?

I'm gonna have to play tomorrow - lots of things to do today (taking the family car to be washed and inspected plus some work-related training thingy).

 

[sampsa]

I wouldn't build any ziggurats anymore. Ziggurats trade to +, but we have no use for those two. The limiting factor on our victory is , so we should use them wisely = build units! Missionaries are not important either. We have overbuilt buildings already on some cities, for example

This city has no food, so it would have been best to stagnate @size2 working copper+plains hill. Since no growth, granary is moot. How much is ziggurat saving? Maybe 3 per turn, it's ok, but not great for 90 investment. -points are not very useful for our situation - maybe for sabotaging walls or inciting city revolts just before attacking.

Ok, now that we have a granary there, it's a good city for 1-pop whipping from size 2 -> size 1. Spending worker turns getting 211-tiles is not very beneficial. Don't try to grow a city that can't grow.

Worker actions: Plains hills windmills are weaker than coast. Also mines are weaker than coast. Mines are good improvements only when you are at the happy cap and can't whip (or have no granary).

I understand that our workers don't have that much to do. Chopping forests outside our cultural borders is one sensible thing to do. If you want to plant one city more, I'm ok with whipping a settler from Nibiru and founding crab-deer. After your turnset it's way too late to be founding cities. Workers should also build some roads to make sure our army won't lose any time after declaring on Hat.

The most important thing in your turnset, Jouzou, is to build enough trebuchets. ~50% of our attacking troops should be trebs.

If we get a GS, I don't think we need any more s. If we get a GA (as in great artist), I suggest that you pause your turnset and post the save. We need to plan another GA (as in golden age) in that case.

Moai is crap. It can beat whipping only if you are running many golden ages (2-coast).

After engineering, I suggest Nationalism @0%. Civil service can be obtained from trade if needed.

Earlier I mentioned 1500 AD (70 turns from now) as a target date. 70 turns is a lot of time and it's certainly possible to win earlier. Let's just focus on the right things (=building a winning army).

Micro tip: after you whip an unit, take it off the first spot in the queue. i.e. just whip it, don't build it yet. start to decay after 10 turns, so you have time to whip other stuff and finish the builds on consecutive turns when you actually need those units.

edit: On the first turn of your set, cancel both resource deals to Hat, re-negotiate wine for spices and cow for .

 

[Jouzou]

T 140-151:

Spoiler :

t 140:
- Re-negotiated the resource deals

t 141-143:
- Nothing special. I send Sandels and the scouting Vulture back home since Hatty's land is all scouted. Workers improve road network, chop forests and get rid of jungle so Hatty can't camp there.

t 144:
- Great scientist born -> Astro bulb

t 145:
- Hey, look. It's Alien-face:

He's not even willing to negotiate Open Borders. He's way backwards in tech, though, so he can probably be bribed if need be.

t 146:
- Engineering in, Hatty discovers Civil Service. I switch to Civil Service @ 0%. Sampsa, I would switch to Nat at 0% except that CS is its pre-req Doesn't really matter 'cause we're not generating any beakers anyway.
- Ap kicks in:

I vote for us, of course. The AP city is Thebes.

t 147:
- Unfortunately, Hatty has more votes than us so she wins the election. Could be a pain when we DOW.

t 148:
- Trebs, trebs, trebs

t 149:
- Oh, joy:

Huayna is more willing to make deals. He lacks many techs we have, but apparently has Paper.

t 150:
- Shwedy and Sistine Chapel are built (by Sury and Hatty, respectively), resulting in a huge chunk of failgold.

t 151:
- We're awesome:

This is where I left off. We have 10 trebs and some more incoming. I haven't traded with other civs yet.

Edit: Spoiler tags

 

[sampsa]

Lookin good, we are awesome indeed.

One thing you either forgot to do or didn't know you should be doing - open borders with HC for insta-profit of ~20 per turn. He is also willing to give 2-resources and 5 per turn for copper+fish for example. That is the reason we wanted astronomy - trade routes and resource deals!

Good point on Nat needing CS... Didn't know that since I've never avoided CS for such a long time!

 

[Robert FIN]

I have time to play tomorrow. What do you want me to do? GSs and trebuchets? Something else?