Super Civs

[Itherael]

So I just lost a game as Calabim.

It was going well and I was experimenting with Empyrean as a state religion. Chalid was an absolute powerhouse and giving him vampirism and teaming him up with Losha worked pefectly.

Losha used regeneration and haste to keep them fast and healthy whereas Chalid was the punch power of the team. Eventually I combined them with some immortals and Brujah which made my victory assured... or not.

I was running through my long standing neighbour the khazad with no difficulty at all, his second city fell and I moved out with my main stack leaving 2 Vampires (+2 Skeleton summons), 2 longbowmen (non-vampiric) and an Empyrean priest (Vampiric) to defend the stack as was my method of defending all my new cities.

The Khazad founded Mercurians the turn I moved out of the second city then it all went wrong, Angels poured out and I scrambled Chalid & Losha to swiftly put down the new threat.

It was no good, the more I killed the more seemed to return in more powerful forms - Valkyries, Seraph, Herald, Angels of death etc.

Basium scattered his stacks into piles of 4-8 as if to avoid getting steamrolled by my Power units, then he spread them everywhere, every city he took (non of which were poorly defended I might add) seemed to become a fully functional Angel factory within a matter of turns.

The funny thing about all of this is it doesnt bother me, that is to say it doesnt bother me that Basium was absurdly powerful and crushed my empire so quickly after emerging.

What really bothers me is that with Empyrean Calabim I was neutral - I didnt want an all goodly ally so had previously passed up the Mercurians for myself, I suddenly realised if I wanted to combat the Mercurians I needed my own super civ ally (as with the Khazad). The Hyborem didnt fit the bill, fickle and disloyal they are a poor choice for a stout ally against the ultimate forces of good.

What I am getting at is this, where is my Neutral super civ?

When a good civ is being picked on they call on the Mercurians.
When an evil civ is being picked on they call on the Hyborem. (or at least try to )
When a neutral civ is being picked on they call on... nobody... Hyborem and Mercurians both aligned against the neutral and they must stand alone.

Apologies for wall of text, spelling, outlandish opinions and dramatic speech.

 

[Grey Fox]

It's not the alignment its the religion.

 

[Itherael]

It's not the alignment its the religion.

I see what you mean here, do you feel that a new race should be added to exemplify each of the existing primary religions in their purest forms?

• Order - Mercurians

• Ashen Veil - Hyborem

• Octopus Overlords - ?

• Runes of Kilmorph - ?

• Fellowship of the leaves - ?

I guess they could add races for the "alternative" religions also.

• Empryean - ?

• Council of Esus - ?

 

[Skyre Noktis]

What he means is that, because you were Empyrean and (presumably) most of your units were Empyrean, you were giving Basium more angels every time you lost a unit in combat. Each time a living unit that follows one of the 'good' religions (Order, Empyrean, Runes) dies, he gets another angel. If he was ripping through your defences and sacking all your cities, his army would be growing bigger and bigger each time.

This fits in with the lore (good people join the angels in the afterlife, bad people join the demons) but has always seemed a bit off to me, gameplay-wise. Essentially, you would have had a much easier time of it if you'd been following AV or something. It also encourages a human Mercurian player to declare war on good civs instead of evil ones, which is very silly, lore-wise, for a guy who was summoned to Erebus in the first place so that he could fight demons.

 

[Itherael]

Skrye Noktis, your post makes a lot of sense to me and explains a lot.

As Grey Fox pointed out it is indeed a matter of religion and not alignment but it is also true that lore wise a number of the Gods are of neutral alignment.

As such it stands to reason that players of a Neutral faith (FotL?) should have support from a third divine group.

Perhaps like so...

Good

• Empryean
• Order

Neutral

• Fellowship of the leaves
• Runes of Kilmorph

Evil

• Ashen Veil
• Council of Esus
• Octopus Overlords

I'm not sure Kilmorph fits but I always feel there is more neutrality to that faith than good.

Then the dead all go to the corresponding faiths and a new divine civ is added to represent Neutrality.

 

[JonathanStrange]

I get the message now and then telling me "Some of your units have gone on to serve the Infernals in the afterlife"? I'm commanding Amelanchier, Ljosalfar neutral leader, follower of the Fellowship of the Leaves. Is the message atmosphere or is Hyborem getting new units from the death of Elves?

As for the neutrals being disliked by good/evil aligned civs, that seems appropriate for remaining separate in the struggle. There are benefits and costs which appears right. Neutrals not having any would-be ally to summon feels right.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Neutral gods are the ones that most support the Compact, so they would not let their angels enter Erebus to take actions in circumvention of it. Well, except maybe for angels that choose to fall. Basium was after all created by one of the most Neutral gods, Arawn. (Basium himself though would count as Chaotic Good. There is no connection between him and The Order in lore, and in fact Sabathiel, Archangel of Junil, legendary Bannor leader, and a very important figure in The Order, claims that Basium is untrustworthy. In the scenarios Basium seems most connected to The Empyrean, but it is also known that he considers Lugus to be a coward and a wimp, and considered the idea of a Priest of Lugus who would storm the gates of hell with him quite odd.)

(Note that Agares is a big supporter of The Compact, because he knows he is better at going against its intent while not technically violating it. He doesn't care about the spirit of the law like the good gods, so it handicaps his enemies more than him. He was involved in letting the Infernals invade Erebus, but he kept his involvement to a minimum ans kept it well hidden so that Hyborem and his army have not technically broken the Compact, although they often come very close. The Mercurians on the other hand openly defy the Compact, but since all their angels have defied their gods and fallen in order to fight on they have no aras of the divine and their actions are not held against the gods that made them

Most souls go the the Netherworld after death, regardless of the religion. Only the most devout actually end up in their god's vault (well, except that the Evil gods have a much looser interpretation of what being devout is, and will try to grab just about anyone to put in Mulcarn's hell for the uncommittal until corrupted enough to proceed down to the lower levels and be continually corrupted until strong enough to be worth having).

Also note that the use of evil magic (Entropy and Death, which is really undeath and is abhorred by the neutral god of death) can make units become manes regardless of their religion.



The most Neutral civ in the game, The Grigori, consider divine intervention of any sort to be a very bad thing, and would not seek it out from some neutral "super civ."


The Calabim should not be using the Empyrean anyway. Lugus and vampires really don't get along. Sunlight won't kill FfH vampires, but it does weaken them significantly and causes serious pain. Given the nature of the sphere, I imagine that this is actually Lugus supernaturally augmenting the vampire's conscious so the vampire feels a deep regret for his past murders and will hopefully be drawn to repentance. I know of no vampire who ever repented, but it would be against Lugus's nature to not allow repentance. He would surely remove his curse from a repentant vampire, at least by the time the vamp stopped drawing any advantage from the souls he consumed in the past. (That might mean older vampires would have to starve themselves to death and only attain forgiveness in the next life, as their bodies are beyond the point where they can be sustained by only natural means.) In my version, not only are Calabim leaders (except Decius, who should be Empyrean when he is Malakim) are weighted heavily against the Empyrean but the civ has NONE as a UU for all Empyrean religious units. I'm also adding a common, recurring event where Empyrean Calabim cities go into revolt.

 

[Fenboy]

I get the message now and then telling me "Some of your units have gone on to serve the Infernals in the afterlife"? I'm commanding Amelanchier, Ljosalfar neutral leader, follower of the Fellowship of the Leaves. Is the message atmosphere or is Hyborem getting new units from the death of Elves?

If you have Ashen Veil in a lot of your cities, some of your units will have AV as a religion. This means that (even though your civ follows FoL) if the unit in question dies then it'll go to the Infernal on its death. Same goes for other religions.

 

[Rystic]

I'm not sure Kilmorph fits but I always feel there is more neutrality to that faith than good.

Kilmorph is Good. Kilmorph units who die will be reborn as Angels.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Ok, when I did get the message, I had been capturing lots of enemy cities. Most of them were Hyborem's and the Clan, all of them Ashen Veil.

Later after I'd sent Inquisitors, the messages stopped.

Cool, I'd been wondering about that.

 

[readercolin]

There is probably a better way of buffing neutral than having a super neutral civ. Note that as MagisterCultuum said

The Neutral gods are the ones that most support the Compact, so they would not let their angels enter Erebus to take actions in circumvention of it. Well, except maybe for angels that choose to fall.

Basically, instead of having a neutral civ, add in some world units that are only available to neutrals. Rise of Darkness put a good start on this by adding 2 new units and restricting them by alignment (Brigit now only available to good, Odio only available to evil, and a dragon (Strength 13, +2 earth mana affinity) available for neutral). So you could add a collection of neutral only world units, representing fallen angels who grew tired of their god's standing aside in the face of a broken compact who become available at certain techs, only available to neutral alignment, and also only available when either the Mercurians or the Infernals have entered the game (or however else you want them to be available).

Probably the best way to make them useful would be to have somewhat low strength, but high affinity for their particular god's mana. That, or they would need some way to boost those around them in combat. Check for creatures from Kael's bestiary (recently released in the lore subsection) and see which ones might fit best. To start, you could probably borrow the Rise of Darkness dragon as a creature of kilmorph, and if you do it for Fall Further, you could try to take advantage of the new great commander system to have a hero who can boost those around him using some sort of commander boosts. You could also have minor creatures become available instead of just the greater ones (again, check the bestiary for inspiration). Just remember that these creatures are here to help enforce the compact, not to help you conquer the world.

-Colin

 

[Bob the Barbari]

How about a group of people, some kind of an order, fighting in the name of the neutral gods against both Mercurians and Infernals. They would require neutral alignment and maybe some building and a tech (initially I was thinking about a guild that could be spread to neutral cities only but as of now there are no guilds in the game). Basicly their motives would be a little like Grigori, except that they would be much more aggresive, and would use some indirect help from their gods possibly in the form of mana affinity. They would all have some bonus against angels or demons, or both and maybe a penalty against living units. They could not be reborn as angels/manes.

It could be so that one has to use a great person to found their headquarters and from then on any neutral civ (with appropriate tech) can build them. I also like the idea of repentant vampire could be some special neutral unit that comes from an event would be like a Vampire Lord in strenght and skills but without Vampire promotion and immortality but with a bonus against vampires.

 

[Jabie]

Octopus Overlords - ?

Aifons...?

 

[Tasunke]

well, Octopus Overlords could be Heraldry of the Old Ones, or something.

It would be fun to make a super civs that is simply the result of dark dreams of hastur. Their hero, or even their religious units, could pass the crazed promotion through combat.

They shouldn't be particularly powerful, but should have alot of flavor of making other people crazy, and being in most senses impossible to understand.

The Overlords never really seemed particularly aligned with agares, to me.

 

[Honor]

How about a group of people, some kind of an order, fighting in the name of the neutral gods against both Mercurians and Infernals. They would require neutral alignment and maybe some building and a tech (initially I was thinking about a guild that could be spread to neutral cities only but as of now there are no guilds in the game). Basicly their motives would be a little like Grigori, except that they would be much more aggresive, and would use some indirect help from their gods possibly in the form of mana affinity. They would all have some bonus against angels or demons, or both and maybe a penalty against living units. They could not be reborn as angels/manes.

It could be so that one has to use a great person to found their headquarters and from then on any neutral civ (with appropriate tech) can build them. I also like the idea of repentant vampire could be some special neutral unit that comes from an event would be like a Vampire Lord in strenght and skills but without Vampire promotion and immortality but with a bonus against vampires.

I like this idea. Some kind of pre-emptive anti-armageddon (good vs evil war) cult could be interesting. They may be built after Mercurians and/or Infernal enter Erebus, and have some unique resistances/bonuses/mechanics for fighting against these civs.

 

[Tasunke]

The Old One's hero could have a spell called "dream fury," which has a chance of banishing lesser angels and demons off the map. Theoretically in a fictional dreamvault of Hastur's creation. Where they are stripped of their memories(when it helps) and basically driven insane, never able to come to their old god's call. Unless Danalin where to die, I guess, and therefore remove Hastur from creation.

 

[far_wanderer]

The most Neutral civ in the game, The Grigori, consider divine intervention of any sort to be a very bad thing, and would not seek it out from some neutral "super civ."

But the super-civ wouldn't have to be divine. It could be arcane. One of my ideas for the distant future (once I get better at modding) is a neutral "religion" founded very late game that is founded on arcane supremacy rather than divine intervention. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to do something like that as a civilization instead - build the Tower of Mastery and you turn over the city to your Archmages, who create a magocratic utopia and take over the world.

 

[William12123]

Well, there is technically a neutral group that is against both basium and hyborem- the luonnotar; there could be another (neutral) faith called "brotherhood of the luonnotar" or the uses of the luonnotar could be greatly expanded, to transform the grigori into a neutral "super civ" (personally, i prefer doing it without the religion);

for example, the grigori could start with a unique tech called "disenchantment", wich would permit them to have a unique disciple unit, the "agnostic", as well as other anti-divine abilities, and so on and so forth. Ever since the change that made it very difficult to get luonnotar ( why can you only upgrade to them with rangers and disciple units anyway; its not like the grigori are gonna have any disciple units!) I find this unit has become useless, and weaken the grigori, already weakened by a lack of religion;

I mean, we already know that cassiel attracts the souls of the uncommitted (from his civilopedia entry) so maybe the grigori could become a third, neutral super civ.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Well, there is technically a neutral group that is against both basium and hyborem- the luonnotar; there could be another (neutral) faith called "brotherhood of the luonnotar" or the uses of the luonnotar could be greatly expanded, to transform the grigori into a neutral "super civ" (personally, i prefer doing it without the religion);

for example, the grigori could start with a unique tech called "disenchantment", wich would permit them to have a unique disciple unit, the "agnostic", as well as other anti-divine abilities, and so on and so forth. Ever since the change that made it very difficult to get luonnotar ( why can you only upgrade to them with rangers and disciple units anyway; its not like the grigori are gonna have any disciple units!) I find this unit has become useless, and weaken the grigori, already weakened by a lack of religion;

I mean, we already know that cassiel attracts the souls of the uncommitted (from his civilopedia entry) so maybe the grigori could become a third, neutral super civ.

No. The majority of Grigori citizens would be outraged at such an order. The Luonnotar could possibly be stronger, but adding an "Agnostic" unit(who is, with your description, more atheist than agnostic) that tries to unconvert units would go against the civilization's ideals. In fact, the only reason the Luonnotar are allowed to exist is because Cassiel permits everything. He does not support the Luonnotar, and most people see them as blashpemers who should be punished. They have very little power on the world stage, so making them into a superpower would just be weird.

 

[William12123]

I still find their lack of power weird since they are supposed to have people from all nations flocking to them.