Svartalfar

[Sureshot]

O_O that looks amazing!!!!

now im going to have to edit svartalfar so i can play them all the time

 

[QES]

But honestly some more discussion about svartalfar please!

How about the fact that your darkelves wont be big boosomed?"
-Qes

EDIT: Hypnosis is a skill learned by the earliest initiates into the Catinuum.

 

[Sureshot]

this thread seems the most revelant to dark elf discussion, despite the rampant offtopicness, so i'll discuss them here

maybe all dark elf units should start with the forest invisibility thing? would make playing them very interesting for the time being until they are more fleshed out, unlike ljosalfar they wouldnt want forests for the forest cottages (im assuming they wouldnt get those), but they would want forests around for the ability to ambush enemies.

 

[QES]

this thread seems the most revelant to dark elf discussion, despite the rampant offtopicness, so i'll discuss them here

maybe all dark elf units should start with the forest invisibility thing? would make playing them very interesting for the time being until they are more fleshed out, unlike ljosalfar they wouldnt want forests for the forest cottages (im assuming they wouldnt get those), but they would want forests around for the ability to ambush enemies.

Yeah, and I like that sort of flavor too, but do you honestly believe that a miltiary bonus is superior to an economic bonus? or even equal?
-Qes

EDIT: It also strikes me as per Faerunian notions, that the ashen vale would be the most likely current religion for the darkelves. I do know however, that it's quite reasonable to make MORE religions (as i recently found the thread that deals with the different phases of FfH construction, and it specficially notes the possiblities of adding more religions.) I recomend something, oh, i dont know, Spidery deceptively doomish. Something with a lot of frothy sounding syllables. Moth, Sloth. Something in that sort of feel.....

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah, and I like that sort of flavor too, but do you honestly believe that a miltiary bonus is superior to an economic bonus? or even equal?
-Qes

EDIT: It also strikes me as per Faerunian notions, that the ashen vale would be the most likely current religion for the darkelves. I do know however, that it's quite reasonable to make MORE religions (as i recently found the thread that deals with the different phases of FfH construction, and it specficially notes the possiblities of adding more religions.) I recomend something, oh, i dont know, Spidery deceptively doomish. Something with a lot of frothy sounding syllables. Moth, Sloth. Something in that sort of feel.....

If we talk about the current religions, Leaves work for Svartalfar too. But there could potentially be 21 religions in the future, couldnt there? There are 21 "Gods", right? (that would be 22 with the one if thats the case, I guess) or is it 21 Angels and 1 God? Im not sure.

 

[QES]

If we talk about the current religions, Leaves work for Svartalfar too. But there could potentially be 21 religions in the future, couldnt there? There are 21 "Gods", right? (that would be 22 with the one if thats the case, I guess) or is it 21 Angels and 1 God? Im not sure.

I think he's grouping them. I'd be happy with seven. (Not including dragon cult)

2 Good, 2 Evil, 3 Neutral.

Or, In their terminology
1 Good, 2 Good/Neutral, 1 Netural, 2 Netural/Evil, 1 Evil

So far its Order (good), Runes (Good/neutral), Fellowship (Neutral), OO (Netural/Evil), and Vale (Evil) and Dragon (Crazy/non selectable)

I think that A) Fellowship and Runes should be switched around in alignements. And B) that the two potentially added could be:

Spoiler :

Arachniam (Netural/Evil)
Worshiped by the liars, cheats and scoundrals of the world, Arachniam is all about spinning a web of deception and allowing your prey to fall into traps, be them military, social, economic, or political. Power through coersion, and maitainance of secret socieites and rulilng classes determining everything, while constantly vying for power within the group itself.

Holy City Effects - Disciple Units gain "Hidden Nationality" promotion.

Buildings:
Arachnae's Lair (Holy City Building): + 1 Gold per City with Arachniam, spreads Arachniam.

Temple of Arachnae: +25% Culture -2 Unhappiness (possible?) +2 Unhealthiness (Only the strong survive), Can build Arachnian Diciple units. +1 Happiness with Insence

Cathedral of Arachnae: <Requires Temple of Arachnae> +25% Culture, -2 Unhappiness(Possible?) +2 Unheathiness, Disciple Units get +2 Xp, Turns 1 Excess Silk into 1 Iron (only in city).

Basillica of Arachnae: <Requires Cathedral of Arachnae> +25% Culture, -2 Unhappiness(Possible?) +2 Unheathiness, Turns 2 Excess Silk Into 1 Mithril (only in city)

Disciple Units:
Beliar of Arachnae: (Disciple) Can Spread Arachnaim.

Sicophant of Arachnae: (Priest) Higher Str than normal. Can produce Temple of Arachnae. Can Hire Mercenaries.

Ssphardar: (High Priest) Can paradrop 10 tiles away. (Use of Tunnels underneath the world). Immune to Magic.

Other Units:
Giant Spider: Produceable at cities with Temple.

Drider: <Expensive> <Requires Cathedral of Arachnae> Str 7, 1 First Strike, 30% Withdrawl Chance, Movement 2, has Hidden Nationality Promoiton and is an Invisable Unit.

Technologies:
Cavernous Expideditions: +2 Food per Mine; Walls, Castles and Mines Provide an extra 25% Defense. Allows access to "Hegemony" Civic.

Civics:
Hegemony: <Cultural Values> <High Maintenance> Prevents spread of other religions in cities. Units with "Hidden Nationality" gain +4 Xp. Double Production of Assassins and Shadows, Driders (and anything else that is subterfuge).

and

Spoiler :

Wanderer's Opus (Good/Neutral)
A prophet known as the wanderer traveled through the lands and taught much of the ways of the world. His primary concerns were freedom for all people, the right to chose one's destiny, and the right to move about at will. Governments seldom enjoyed his preachings for it weakened their authroity, but those socieites that embrased him knew unparalleled freedom and expression.

Holy City Effects: +100% Culture

Buildings:
Tomb of the Wanderer (Holy City Building): +1 Gold per Opus City, spreads Opus Faster.

Forum of Wanderlust: (Temple) +25% Culture, Allows 1 one Artist, Allows 1 Sage, +1 Happiness with Insence.

Disciple Units:
Pilgram of the Opus: (Disciple) Can spread Opus. Can use impassable terrain.

Journeyman of the Opus: (Priest) Can create Forum of Wanderlust (does not disband Journeyman). Can use Impassable Terrain.

Wanderer's Apprentice: (High Priest) When In a home city, can sacrifice one population of the city to produce one settler (causes no discontent in city). Can Use Impassable Terrain.

Other Units:
Mavericks: Str 4, Cost 0 Maintenance. Have Medic 1. Fortification maximum at 50% (10 turns) instead of 25% (5 Turns).

Technologies:
Visions and Portents: Roads give +1 Movement, +1 Trade routes in All cities, +20% Trade route Yeild. Allows "Freedom of Movement" Civic.

Civics:
Freedom of Movement: <Cultural Value> <Low Maintenance> +50% Culture, +100% War Weariness, -2 XP per unit, Artists produce +2 Gold.

Wack away ladies and gents.

-Qes

 

[khanjackal]

Both of those look pretty great.

I think an interesting twist would be to split religion, and deific alliegance.

As in, 7 religions to choose from, and 21 Gods. Maybe some religions and gods are incompatible. So you have 2 menus, one to select your religion, another to select your patron diety.

A thought.

 

[Grey Fox]

Im not gonna comment on your religion examples yet. But rather comment on the leaves suggestion. Which is, I dont like your suggestion.

I love the fact that the Leaves is neutral, and I also love that the Light Elves are neutral (mostly, boo for that Good ljosalfar you dont fit my FfH, be gone withya ).
That (most) Ljosalfar are neutral, instead of as in almost every other Fantasy Setting, being Good. Makes them alot more interesting.

It's better when Humans are "good" in FfH for me. Humans have more of a weakness. They dont know better. They might think they are good, and what they do is good. But they are just fanatic about doing what they think are "good". But good in FfH isnt what good in many other Fantasy settings might be. Since its a Dark setting.

Or atleast thats my point of view.

 

[Hypnotoad]

What if Dark Elves could take Prisoner's of War. Most units could carry one prisoner. They could then take them back to the woods and sacrafice the prisoners in the woods. As you made the sacrafices, the woods would turn a dark red color. The woods would get sort of basic bonus for the sacrafices such as:

First sacrafice: +1 commerce.
Third: +1 Hammer
Fifth: +1 commerce

Now that we have cool graphics, we should really get this Civ going...

 

[Chandrasekhar]

That might be pretty interesting. It might also be cool for them to be able to choose what they want to enhance in the forest, as in add either one , one and one , or two . Perhaps a forest enhanced in this way would also have a chance of spawning a treant-like unit in defense if a hostile unit entered it. Or, better yet, the unit it spawned could be hidden nationality, and it would spawn even if a unit with open borders entered the dark forest.

Note that I really like that last mechanic I mentioned- I think it could be implemented elsewhere if not here.

 

[QES]

Im not gonna comment on your religion examples yet. But rather comment on the leaves suggestion. Which is, I dont like your suggestion.

I love the fact that the Leaves is neutral, and I also love that the Light Elves are neutral (mostly, boo for that Good ljosalfar you dont fit my FfH, be gone withya ).
That (most) Ljosalfar are neutral, instead of as in almost every other Fantasy Setting, being Good. Makes them alot more interesting.

It's better when Humans are "good" in FfH for me. Humans have more of a weakness. They dont know better. They might think they are good, and what they do is good. But they are just fanatic about doing what they think are "good". But good in FfH isnt what good in many other Fantasy settings might be. Since its a Dark setting.

Or atleast thats my point of view.

Thats fair, I care more about the addition of other religious options than I do about the specific alignment of one particular religion or another.
-Qes

 

[dreiche2]

Im not gonna comment on your religion examples yet. But rather comment on the leaves suggestion. Which is, I dont like your suggestion.

I love the fact that the Leaves is neutral, and I also love that the Light Elves are neutral (mostly, boo for that Good ljosalfar you dont fit my FfH, be gone withya ).
That (most) Ljosalfar are neutral, instead of as in almost every other Fantasy Setting, being Good. Makes them alot more interesting.

It's better when Humans are "good" in FfH for me. Humans have more of a weakness. They dont know better. They might think they are good, and what they do is good. But they are just fanatic about doing what they think are "good". But good in FfH isnt what good in many other Fantasy settings might be. Since its a Dark setting.

Or atleast thats my point of view.

But Leaves is rather indifferent than neutral, as you can have any alignment while being Leaves. So in particularly, you can be good. If you switch Runes and Leaves, then Leaves is neutral/good, and flavorwise, you could imagine them being neutral, but tolerating good. Much what Kael said about Runes right now.

So the only thing that would change is that you could not be evil and Leaves at the same time. I think I was the one who brought that up originally (which means that I hold copyright on that suggestion and you have to pay me every time you even think about it...), because I didn't like the combination of a balance seeking, nature loving religion (Leaves would be neutral, for me, too), and world destroying, land burning evil people. But in the case of the Svartalfar, I have to say, the combination might make sense, cause here it maybe isn't a destructive kind of evil...

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Only one civ really wants to destroy the world, the Sheaim. Really, they only thematically fit the veil. Even the Octopus Overlords don't want to end the world, just enslave it. Kilmorphites I don't see as being that hot on ending things once and for all either. When playing Sheaim, you really have to see them as either changing their goals, or only paying lip service to the creed and using it to placate the masses.
The other evils don't want to kill everything, though in some cases (Clans, Doviello) maybe they do want to kill everythin else. In which case they see the leaves as enableing them, the strong, to prey on the weak, ala social darwinism. Evil philosophy, yes, but potentially inspired by nature worship.

 

[Sureshot]

It would seem pretty evil to kill anyone who mistreats a tree, so if nature was vengeful itd just as easily be classified as evil by any who would use wood for anything.

on the note of Svartalfar, I made a Dark Elf warrior, swordswoman, and archer using the first set of female dark elf units, and am currently playing a marathon game so hopefully i wont ever get the units higher than axemen level before i win

 

[MrUnderhill]

If the Svartalfar had their own religion (ala QES' suggestion), then we could make Leaves neutral-good and Runes just plain neutral.
As it is, however, no other religion fits the Svartalfar like the Fellowship of Leaves (the closest second would be the Veil, and that's still a longshot), and, as such, it has to stay neutral.

And on another note, did anyone read my idea of having the Svartalfar be skilled at distance combat?

 

[Sureshot]

what is distance combat?

my impressions of them are that they're necromancers and assassins for the most part, so im hoping their combat units have invisibility in forests, elven trait, and maybe an additional first strike, and that they maybe get necromancy mana as one of their palace manas

and all female units

 

[MrUnderhill]

my impressions of them are that they're necromancers and assassins for the most part, so im hoping their combat units have invisibility in forests, elven trait, and maybe an additional first strike, and that they maybe get necromancy mana as one of their palace manas

Same here, except that just giving them invisibility in forests seems a little cheap. I picture them as being dodgy and evasive, staying out of sight until it's too late for the enemy to retreat. Not so much invisible as they are skilled at staying outside an enemy's visibility range (more on that later).

Their mages would use Spell Extension a lot, butchering their opponent without them knowing where it's coming from. Shadow spells would include things like Blind, a nasty condition that would reduce an enemy unit's visibility range (and their withdrawl rate, as well).

If we move Rooted from a divine spell to a sorcery spell, they could get Nature mana as well and use that to freeze an enemy unit in place while they butcher it with other spells. If not, they could get Mind or Chaos mana instead.

For the last mana source, I suggest we change the Ljosalfar's fire mana to water and give fire to the Svartalfar. This is mostly for game balance (no more Ljosalfar siege mages), but it serves a flavor purpose, as well.

 

[MrUnderhill]

For the assassins, again I don't suggest outright invisibility since that would take away some flavor from the Sidar; not to mention it'd be tough to balance.

Instead the assassins would have a unique promotion called "Stealth" that gives them +1 visibility, +1 movement, and +50% strength (possibly Hidden Nationality, as well).

Each turn, every unit with the Stealth promotion would be checked to see if they are currently visible to the enemy, and if they are, the Stealth promotion gets replaced by a similar promotion, but without the strength bonus. The icons on these promotions would be different so the player can determine when an assassin's cover has been blown at a glance (sort of like Oblivion's stealth system).
As a side-effect, the AI would also know when not to use an assassin because of the loss of strength.

 

[Sureshot]

id rather have forest invisibility and ambush every enemy, its not too great because if superior forces come they are likely to push your units out of the woods into adjacent tiles where the dark elves would be very vulnerable, but its neat and a flavourful

i dont think theyd need elven cottages and the like, but theyd need something to attach them to forests thats unique, and forest invisibility would do it, plus itd make them like spiders, and elven promotion so that the elf slayer works against them and give them mobility in woods.

 

[wilboman]

Svartalfar units should probably have charm, alright. Mind Mana, in other words.