[Sword of Islam]: Byzantine Conquest

[blizzrd]

What do people think about sending our veterans from the Rum rebellion down south and collaborating with the Catholics in destroying the Abbasids? It would be best to build up Iraq before the Mongols destroy the great people being settled there.
All we would need are some trebuchets (doubly promoted from Ankyra with at least 7 XP), some marksmen and may be some heavy infantry to counter their spearmen UU.
Razing all the cities north of Samarra (e.g. Mosul, Ar-Raqqah) would also nerf the Zengids and Ak Koyunlu.

The idea is not bad, but we still have a lot of research to go through before we want to start expanding in my view.

If the Abbasids are alive, the Zengids will most likely war with them and not us. This might be a good reason not to destroy the Abbasids too soon. Ak Koyunlu is not problem, but the Zengid spawn can be a bit intense if all of their units come our way.

It might be worth sending some defenders to the best cities in Georgia and Armenia soon (i.e. the ones with Great People settled in them) to ensure that the Mongols don't raze their Great People.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

We're maybe at most 50 years away from getting heavy lancers (after economics and optics/astronomy). I don't think we need much more research to conquer Iraq.
Troops we have now are just eating money if they're not doing anything.
The Zengids often vassalize to the Abbasids. Their horse archers are nothing against our cataphracts, heavy infantry and marksmen (just station some around the forested hill 1N of Antioch, and maybe some in the hills north of Damascus.
I would much rather get the great people in Baghdad than in Armenia.

BTW, the Fatimids should be kept alive and well until 1250, and then collapsed (capture everything except for Luxor so the Mamluks can spawn but without Cairo).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Yes, Smyrna should get the national wonders for
100% GP
100% Science
and Al-Jazari Workshop (free engineer)

Tarsos is not so good once the House of Wisdom expires.

I forgot to mention that Smyrna has an Orthodox Cathedral now, so the next one should be in Constantinople.

 

[Jusos2108]

Byzzies get siphonophores? Neat!

You can get one, if you get the Greek Fire quest and have enough money when it is finished.

 

[Jusos2108]

Actually, Constantinople has more water tiles than either Sinopi or Amastris.
snip.
Ghazza razed and we retrieve a relic!
snip.
2. Try to raze Akka if possible (because KoJ's culture will annoy Damascus).
6. When Stern Rudder is done,

Constantinople or Rhodos is the best place for Kizil Kule.

Why did you raze it?

Akka is too far away to bother Damascus.

Why Stern Rudder? There is no hurry to get it. We are still quite far from Blast Furnace.

 

[Jusos2108]

What do people think about sending our veterans from the Rum rebellion down south and collaborating with the Catholics in destroying the Abbasids? It would be best to build up Iraq before the Mongols destroy the great people being settled there.
All we would need are some trebuchets (doubly promoted from Ankyra with at least 7 XP), some marksmen and may be some heavy infantry to counter their spearmen UU.
Razing all the cities north of Samarra (e.g. Mosul, Ar-Raqqah) would also nerf the Zengids and Ak Koyunlu.

I think this is a good idea, but we should wait a while to see what the Abbasdis are researching after Paper. Waiting helps our science as well and gives the Abbasids more time to settle their GPs.

Yes, Smyrna should get the national wonders for
100% GP
100% Science
and Al-Jazari Workshop (free engineer)

Tarsos is not so good once the House of Wisdom expires.

I forgot to mention that Smyrna has an Orthodox Cathedral now, so the next one should be in Constantinople.

I agree, Smyrna has always been my science city.

I started a cathedral in Constantinople, what happened to it?

 

[rrosen]

I'll play tonight.

 

[blizzrd]

I started a cathedral in Constantinople, what happened to it?

It has been completed.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Why did you raze it?

Akka is too far away to bother Damascus.

Why Stern Rudder? There is no hurry to get it. We are still quite far from Blast Furnace.

Ghazza is just a useless city in general since Jerusalem cannot be razed. I could not liberate it to Fatimids (they might have accepted it as a gift though).

If we raze Akka, the AI will have to use their settler to build it (instead of closer up north to us, where it can take away a dye or 2).

As blizzrd says, Kizil Kule is rather expensive, and since we have a GE, why not make the wonder much earlier for the hammers? And correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't knowledge of Stern Rudder make Optics cheaper (since we want Astronomy as early as possible for the free observatories)?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Sorry, didn't see that Constantinople already has a cathedral. I finished the weaver there and was about to build the textile factory when medicine was learned, so I switched to a hospital.
So, in general, do people build weavers for the textile factories first, even if the city doesn't need the happiness from the weavers?
Or is it better to build other economic buildings (e.g. confectioner or butchery) first?

 

[Jusos2108]

Well it depends whether the city has health issues/happiness issues or not. Maybe a bit more often, I go with the butchery/confectioner combo.

 

[MessageMan]

If the city has health problems I go for butchery first but if not I go for textile factory. The Weaver doesn't take long to build and textile factory gives more gold than butchery/confectioner and also 5% hammer.

 

[rrosen]

Turn 0: Sell astrolabe to Ghaznavids for 20 gold.

Turn 1: Great Merchant is born, save it for the meantime. Workers start to chop forests that are out of city reach.

Turn 2: No message about flips, a rebel peasant spawns.

Turn 3: Stern rudder finishes, starts alchemy. No message about Rum, so I decide it is safe to move back into the cities. Kizil Kule built in Constantinopel by great engineer.

Abbasids are attacking Acre, so I snatch and raze the city before they take it. Some Cataphracts are moved towards Armenia and Georgia.

Spoiler :

Turn 4: Kizil Kule finished. Ankyra building trebuchets that are moved towards abbasids. Abbasids are moving towards Jerusalem. I try to sacrifice the horse archer, but he lives and are retired instead. Jerusalem is captured and we win a relic. Problem though, Makuria do not want Jerusalem. Fatimids would like it, but we do not want them to get the stability hit of losing it to KoJ, so I donate it to Armenia (Ghaznavids do not want it).

Spoiler :

Turn 5: Abbasids got paper, the regular spy is three turns away from Ar-Raqa.

Turn 6: Smyrna finishes hospital, starts royal archive. Tomb of Wal al Khalid finishes. Eddesa spawns and is razed for the cost of one cataphract.

Spoiler :

Turn 7: Abbasids declare war. Jerusalem becomes independent, so no war between KoJ and Armenia. Merdin is captured and razed. Quite large forces are kept in Armenia and Georgia, but we have more than enough for Abbasids.

Spoiler :

Turn 8: Alchemy finished. Started with blast furnace, 15 turns left. Built Alchemist lab (academy) in Constantinople with our great scholar. Even with infiltration we will not have enought to steal paper, so the spy is sent further south (towards Samarra) so that Ar-raqa can be razed. The great spy is kept alive in the meantime. Several stacks of Abbasids troops destroyed.

Turn 9: A very nice event in Constantinople from the alchemist lab. I choose the health bonus (other options: +1 happiness, +4 research). Another event in Smyrna gave between 51 and 100 gold (forgot to notice how much). Ar-Raqa captured and razed.

Spoiler :

Turn 10: Principality of antioch spawns, open border with them. Sell astrolabe to Ajmer for 20 gold. Sheep to Makuria for 3 gold per turn. Iron to Fatimid for 2 gold per turn (we want them to be strong and survive). Spy has arrived in Samarra and we are ready to take Mosul.

Spoiler :

To do:
Steal paper from Abbasids once the spy has been in Mosul long enough (and using spy points from great spy).
Conquer the Abbasids. Or make peace with them, if we want that. They are not yet willing to give up paper for peace.
Decide what next to do with our victorious hordes.
Build Al-Jazeeras workshop in Smyrna once Royal Archives finish (5 turns).
Maybe it was bad to go for heavy lancers directly, do we want to get optics/astronomy/economics first?

 

[blizzrd]

Built Alchemist lab (academy) in Constantinople with our great scholar.

Surely this should have been in Smyrna, our designated science city?

 

[rrosen]

Surely this should have been in Smyrna, our designated science city?

It should have. Mea Culpa.

 

[Science Rules]

I'm confused about the turn order. Am I next?

 

[rrosen]

As far as I understand, yes.

 

[jammerculture]

Can someone explain all the talk about Rum flips and keeping units out of cities. I feel like I am missing a more then likely potent strategy. In my last couple Byzantine games Rum would spawn, I would raze konya and then destroy the Turkic stack in the open. i would refuse the flip and then the civ would be destroyed. In your game a city outside of your control flipped to them and another stack spawned which kept them alive. If that city had been razed earlier and not available for flipping, would that have been the end of it? or am I missing something completely?


also: how long do these turn sets usually take you guys? when i play i blow through 12 turns in ten minutes, of course this could be why i just finished my second UHV victory lol. any hints on time management, the process you guys go through while playing would be helpful

 

[Science Rules]

All right, I'll start playing soon. If anyone has anything to say, please post now.

 

[blizzrd]

Can someone explain all the talk about Rum flips and keeping units out of cities. I feel like I am missing a more then likely potent strategy. In my last couple Byzantine games Rum would spawn, I would raze konya and then destroy the Turkic stack in the open. i would refuse the flip and then the civ would be destroyed. In your game a city outside of your control flipped to them and another stack spawned which kept them alive. If that city had been razed earlier and not available for flipping, would that have been the end of it? or am I missing something completely?

Rum spawns with a small group incl. settlers new Ikonion. If you fight these units on the first turn that they spawn, they tend to regenerate just as fast as you can kill them. But on the 2nd Rum turn, they will found their capital and then move all of their offensive units out of the capital into the open somewhere. Killing these units immediately thereafter does not attract the unit regeneration that would have occurred during the first turn. Rum is destroyed upon all of these initial units being eliminated.

Then on the third turn, all the cities in the Rum flip zone will try to flip to Rum, which will be reborn (if it was eliminated on their 2nd turn). Additionally, Rum gets another much larger stack of units on their 3rd turn, the location of which can vary considerably within the flip zone. But if all of these units are killed and the flip is refused, Rum will be destroyed again.

The Rum flip zone extends into Lesser Armenia, which is why the Barbarian (former Armenian) city there flipped to Rum in our game on this third turn - keeping them alive.

What follows after the third turn is a series (8 or 10?) of turns where at the start of each turn any units within the flip zone will flip to Rum and they will be reborn again. So you have to keep all of your units out of the flip zone for a while to ensure that Rum stays destroyed.

also: how long do these turn sets usually take you guys? when i play i blow through 12 turns in ten minutes, of course this could be why i just finished my second UHV victory lol. any hints on time management, the process you guys go through while playing would be helpful

If I'm taking notes, 10 turns might take an hour or more. If I'm just playing without taking notes though, 10 mins for 10 turns might be about right. But I'm also a micromanager (as it says below my avatar) so I do often spend additional time reviewing city production/tiles worked/trade contacts/espionage - perhaps 15 mins for 10 turns is about where I might be at.