T2 External Consulate - How to strike Portugal?

[Bertie]

After we conclude our war with the Dutch our next target will be Portugal and the Great Pyramids. How are we going to get our troops there? All via the sea? Some via the sea, some overland? All overland? How long will it take to transport our troops? And how many do we need?

Although how to attack Portugal is largely a logistical question and thus falls under the COA’s responsibilities, if we decide to send our troops overland to Portugal we’ll first need to negotiate ROPs, thus the External Consulate’s interest in the question. If we decide we’ll need ROPs we’ll want to time them so they’re available when we have troops ready to move, and which will also expire at an opportune time. This of course requires some planning.

 

[GenMarshall]

There are 3 roads of thought on this one.

First, is a naval expedition. Basicly is just shuttling our troops from our civ to the Portugiese coast.

Second, sign a ROP with the French and Spanish (ATM, there is an unexplored region so I am guessing that the French and Spanish cities are arranged in a quilt pattern). In order to get to Portugal. This one I suggest since it is the most easyest of the three options.

Lastly, this would have to involve military action against the French and or the Spansih while signing a MA with the French or Spanish (Which ever we dont declare war on)

 

[RegentMan]

A seaborn invasion will require plenty of transports. After the Dutch war, we'll be pushing for infastructure. Where would ten to fifteen galleys fit?

 

[Kentharu]

i think the majority of our troops should go by land but we should still put some guys on 3 or 4 ships(probably more) and send them around the side so that it's a 2 front war, the sea invasion would mostly be a "covert" operation of sorts because our main force would be in by land, since we would be pushing for infastructure ships would be hard to put out

 

[LeeT911]

Could someone possibly post a map of Portugal?

Kentharu has a good idea. Send a few units in boats around the back to block roads and delay enemy reinforcements. We might also need some galleys to interfere with enemy shipping lanes

 

[Furiey]

Portugal, 450 BC, but it hasn't really changed since then:

 

[Strider]

Use 2-4 galleys loaded with troops to take Guimaraes (this is based on Furiey's map). Have the large majority of our troops take Oporto VIA land. Whatever is left from both assualts (if it is a credible amount) then moves towards Lisbon in a pincer attack.

When I say "whatever is left" I'm thinking of units that are in good health.

Also, just to shake things up and distract Portuguese reinforcements. Kentharu's idea of dropping acouple of units in VIA galley is extremely good. 2 galleys full of spearmen (4 spearmen), could keep the Portuguese off our newly conquered cities. If they spearmen make it out alive, then we have some defenders for our new cities.

 

[zyxy]

I would prefer a seaborne operation. No hassle with 20 turn deals tying us down, oad blocks holding us up, etc. Also the AI is hopeless in road networks. I think I estimated 15 turns sailing from Amsterdam to Lisbon in the previous Portugal thread.

Assuming Portugal has no iron, settlements are townsize and built on flat land (can't check the save now) 5 or 6 galleyloads should be enough to take out the three cities. In any case, start with the city containing the Pyramids.

The galleys can be cashrushed on the north coast. We might even try to get Delft in a peace deal for shorter supply lines.

 

[RegentMan]

Ewww... I do not want to spend our hard-earned cash on galleys that will be used only once.

 

[vikingruler]

i think a seaborne invasion is the easiest. since the portugeuese have only 3 cities, 2 or 3 galleys with swords and spears should be enough. plus, we won't have to deal with making ROPs. also, a landborne invasion would take to much time, we are really far away from the portugeuese.

 

[Kentharu]

viking has a good point to potrugal only has 3 cities, how many troops could they possible have.... do we even know how many they have perhaps a seaborne invasion should be considered to because land routes would be harder to travel especially if the people we ROPed with have a troop blocking the road, something like that could happen and it would delay us, possible a few hundred years. maybe we should send a scout of sorts first to check out their troop stregth and if we have enough mount an assault. The AI can be fairly ******** in building roads and sometimes dumping units in the way. Rushing galleys in my opion is a waste of money, how many galleys do we have anyway last i heard was we only had 1. to me a sea borne invasion is sounding more and more the way to go maybe 4or5 galleys that means 8or10 swords or spears whatever the COA chooses

 

[DaveShack]

If we use the sea route, the galleys could be used again to deliver troops to another opponent for a 2nd front, or for a diversionary action.

ROPs are ok if the AI has no reason to go across our territory, but not necessarily a good idea if there is a target they could legitimately be drawn to. Since we seem dead set on Republic, to keep unit costs down we'll probably start talking about leaving the inland part of the core undefended, which is another reason to avoid ROPs.

 

[YNCS]

The problem with a seaborne attack is that we have to build a bunch of ships to transport a decent sized army. We have to build other things as well (remember, we're committed to a cultural victory, so we have to build some CP generators), which will limit the number of galleys we can build.

 

[ali]

we face the following issues 1) we have a limited budget to work with in the defence dept. (as mentioned above our want for a republic) an increase in one area of the military ie. Navy will lead to a decrease in the other ie.Army 2) For ROPs we must enter convince the AI to enter into the deal 3) Primative transport infrastruture ie. roads in areas of AI control ie. Spain etc.
Proposed solution as I see it: 1) We try to develop an fair proportion of the transport fleet to the army, it is obvious that we may need a fleet in any future conflicts or settlement expansion perhaps
2) Im not experienced in the art of diplomacy in regards to Civ3 in general but getting AIs into ROP agreements would that not help our reputation somewhat if we were to offer something for it maybe?
3) Theres nothing we really can do about that but simply make do with what we have.

Operational War plans:
1) We use seaborne forces (Army Group A) to stop reinforcements from entering the designated combat zone ie. the portuagian city with the pyramids
2) Whilst the force (Army Group B) that took the long trip begin its attack onto the city itself.
3)Whilst Army Group B (AGB) is operating its offensives Army Group A (AGA) will begin to take offensive action in the form of raids to keep major formations from our objective.
4) AGB takes city, AGA takes another city, we than now have to options sue for peace and make the country a satillite dependant on us or complete the conquest of the nation
I feel thats probably the best option as the moment so yea.

 

[zyxy]

Some rough estimates (I can't look at the save or any tools right now, so this is based on memory and intuition -- I'll leave it up to you whether you trust it ):

Portugal has three cities, all size 6, none on fresh water, so needing aqueducts to grow. I'll assume they've grown to city size by the time we get there. All cities are on flat terrain. Portugal has no iron, so defenders are spears, most likely regular. Probably 4 defenders in the capital, 2 each in the other cities. They'll defend at 3.7 (because of 50+25+10% bonus).

If we attack with vet MDI (asuming we have to tech by then), we can expect to loose nearly half the battles, and win more than half (I'll have to check precise numbers on this). I'll assume a 50-50 split to be safe. To take Lisbon would then require 7 or 8 MDI, and we should expect to loose 4. The remaining 4 would be just enough to take one more city, losing another one or two. We'll need 9 or 10 MDI to take all three cities. As our supply lines are long, I would prefer 12 to be safe.

(An alternative is to take one city, rush a harbor and rax if needed, and then rush MDI's locally -- or longbows, in with case you don't need a harbor. But this is very costly and risky.)

By land: as we don't seem to have full map knowledge, I don't know how long walking to Portugal takes, but 25 turns from Amsterdam should be about it (with ROP's). Then about 10 turns to finish them. Total cost is roughly 850 gold (35 turns * 12 units * 2 gpt).

By sea: sailing from Amsterdam to Lisbon is about 15 turns, and takes 6 galleys. The galleys can be rushed on the north coast for 700 gold, in 6 turns or less. Again 10 turns to finish, total cost is roughly 1600 gold (25 turns * 18 units * 2 gpt + 700).

These numbers are very rough, and may vary by a few 100 gold depending on the exact number of troops and turns.

Advantages of going by land:

• cheaper by some 800 gold (that's a library and two temples).
• less additional cost if we need to scale up.

Advantages of going by sea:

• can strike directly at Pyramids city, and take out other cities later.
• gets the Pyramids some 15 turns earlier.
• naval transport is less dependent on other AI's (no roadblocks or missing roads)
• no need for ROP's
• will give us a navy, that can be used in future operations.

 

[MOTH]

Portugal now has the Statue of Zues. A first priority should be to capture or disconnect their sources of Ivory. IIRC if they don't have Ivory then they don't build ACs.

It looks like the Ivory is in Oporto, so this should be the first target.

We should also show no mercy. We cannot have peace with Portugal due to the flip risk. They must be eliminated.

 

[Furiey]

Alternatively capture the Statue of Zeus as a first target, I think (but haven't got Civ open at the moment to check and this is a bit of drive-by) that it's in the same city as the Pyramids. This removes the need to deprive them of Ivory and will give us in the free units asap.

edit: just checked and both wonders are in Lisbon

 

[Kentharu]

i think ali's strategy is perfect but getting past that, should we really destroy portugal, if we capture the top msot city and the bottom city than we could eventually culture crush them, we could rush libraries and temples and also having a nation that is basically helpless with out us can have its perks we could cut off their trade with any other civs so we would have sol rights to anything they get and do, any gold and any luxeries, and rescources that they get though with that little territory they probably won't get much but they would be constantly depend on use for technology which could be use as a powerful bargaining chip to gold or whatever we want, they will be on their knees to us so why not let them live a little longerjust take the 2 cities with the wonders(hopefully we will trape their last city either on the shore or in between our 2 cities) maybe after a few hundred years they will stoping being furious at us though i highly doubt that.... just a suggestion but i think a poll should be set up soon

 

[zyxy]

@Kentharu: taking the top and bottom cities means taking everything but the useful city
The remaining city is a culture powerhouse and the capital, so we won't be able to culture flip it or even box it in. Letting Portugal alive in fact gives a great risk of cities flipping back to them

On another note, I would be against a combined sea/land operation as it combines the disadvantages of both, without giving any benefits as far as I can see. I think the fundamental choice is between a fast, autonomous (no dependency on other civs) but expensive sea operation, or a slow but cheaper land operation.

 

[Furiey]

The Statue of Zeus was built in 710BC, that's 26 turns ago. I can't remember if it gives a free Ancient Cavalry on the first turn or if you get the first on the 5th turn, but assuming you get it on the first turn that currently gives 6 Ancient Cavalry running about. Using zyxy's estimate of how long to the attack gives 35 turns, or 7 more Ancient Cavalry by Land and 25 turns or 5 more Ancient Cavalry by sea. We could therefore face a force of a total of:

By Land: 13 Ancient Cavalry
By Sea: 11 Ancient Cavalry

All sitting around waiting for us. If it takes longer it will be more. It may be worth embroiling the Portuguese in a war somewhere to draw these units out of their territory and clear the way for our invasion. By land or sea we will have time for a 20 turn alliance to do this.