Tablet of Bambur - RoK Comandments

[Ekolite]

All RL religions have some kind of rules to live by e.g. the Ten Comandments. What rules do followers of Kilmorph live by? Do they have any food types they can't eat? What would be considered as sins? What do dwarves aspire to? What do they believe happens to them when they die? Discuss.

 

[zxcvbnm]

When they die they go to the vault of the god they served, likely Kilmorph. Their goal is to get a lot of gold. They won't eat orc (I think so). Sloth is most likely to be a sin.

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

1st rule of acquisition. "Once you have their money, never give it back".

Might hold for the Kilmorph people

 

[thewyrm]

A religion built around avarice would thumb its nose at sloth?

Pot meet kettle, kettle this is pot.

 

[jimi12]

"thou shalt not steal" would also likely be a HUGE one since the accrual of wealth through hard work is the driving force of the whole religion.

 

[Mewtarthio]

A religion built around avarice would thumb its nose at sloth?

Pot meet kettle, kettle this is pot.

It's not built around avarice. It's built around the belief that you should work hard for your wealth and keep that wealth. It frowns upon charity, not because its practitioners are all greedy bastards who wouldn't spare a quarter for their dying mothers, but because it holds that the poor should work to get out of their positions. I've always understood it to be closest to an Adam Smith-esque free market economy.

Of course, I'm not an expert on Erebusian lore. I'd really like to know why it turns Evil into Neutral.

 

[Kael]

I dont have an official answer to this but I would think arete would be a high virtue for them. Its unfair to say they are greedy, its probably closer to say that they don't value charity or generosity very much. As for chief sins I would imagine that pride is very frowned upon (based on their creation story) and that also hate cheating/dishonesty (the reason most dwarves withdrew to the underhome in the first place).

The religion itself strongly values tradition. You could say that it doesn't value direct compassion, but the traditional aspects make up for this. Creating the roles between a son and his family, a worker in his clan, a soldier and the army. These traditional bonds emphasize responsibility in the relationship that arent about personal self interest. So a soldier can be very self-sacrificing, a son will care for his father, and a citizen will donate time and goods to the city. But these are very well understood duties within the RoK and not caused by a general spirit of compassion.

for example, if a stranger wandered into an RoK city the RoK would ignore the man, assuming he has no value. from their perspective he would be without any of his traditional attachments, meaning his own people kicked him out. So they would assume he was trouble right fromt he start and wouldn't encourage his staying by providing any food or shelter unless it was a pretty extreme situation (like people fleeing from a battle, our another countries oppression).

 

[Ekolite]

Deleted. (cross-post)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Dwarven religion is very missunderstood. It isn't about avarice at all, it is about hard but productive work. They worship Kilmorph, who in addition to being the Goddess of the Earth is also the Goddess of the Harvest, i.e., of reaping the benefits of your own labor and of self sufficiency. The connection between the religion and gold is that following its precepts will likely make you richer, and will increase the wealth of your whole nation while your are at it.

Greed is completely different. That is the domain of Mammon, the God of the Mind. Originally this meant foresight, but since his fall it means schemings to profit where you do not deserve to, by tricking others out of the fruits of their labor. The Dwarven idea of greed is not exactly the same as ours (it is probably a better view in most circumstances, but not all). They see nothing wrong working to make your own life and the life of your family better, but the desire to gain what you don't deserve is abhorred. They tend to consider the poor to be the greediest of people, since they are asking for handouts from those who have worked for a living instead of taking care of themselves. They believe that charity actually harms the recipients. It teaches them they don't have to work for themselves, leaving them more dependent on others and morally inferior. I don't think that a Kilmorph followers would have a problem given a job to a poor man/dwarf, but they would never consider paying them until they have earned their keep. They consider this the only way to encourage virtue (don't think we missed the arete pun. You know, that is is Ancient Greek for Virtue and English for a Mountain Ridge, although these are pronounced differently), to help the poor in both this life and the next.


The Dwarves pedia entries (with references to "digging to Mammon's hell," etc.) make it clear to me that avarice is the chief vice recognized by Dwarven religion, and that Mammon epitomized their idea of evil. Their religion is most fundamentally opposed to the Stewards of Inequity (The Balseraph "religion." The quotes are because mammon prefers to be worshiped indirectly, through the selfish actions of his followers. This "religion" is focused on keeping the rich rich and the poor poor, despite their virtues. It gets along well with the Council of Esus).

Of course, I'd probably have to say that their opposition to Greed may stem from a recognition that it is one of their main vices. They protect their egos by tieing it to sloth, even in the circumstances where it shouldn't be. Like many rich conservatives, they tend to assume that poverty is the result of sloth (as it often may be) until someone can prove that a particular case had extreme extenuating circumstances. It is important however to realize that this is not because of their religion. As in so many real societies, religions attempt to correct social problems, but fall short. The people are not perfect, nor are their clergy. This has probably led to some hypocrisy which has fueled the negative stereotypes of the dwarves, but I don't think it is any more severe than in any other society.

 

[Kael]

I'd imagine theft would be considered a worse sin then murder by the dwarves.

Nah, they arent crazy. But theft is a more severe crime among the RoK than it would be in other religions, especially theft from the church. I would imagine someone running a crooked gambling house could recieve the death penalty in a RoK city, where they would recive jail time in the Order, fine/civic service in the Empyrean, the whim of the state/mob within the fellowship (they arent big on set laws), no punishment from Esus, even wilder whims from the Overlords (maybe nothing, maybe death), and a very creative civic service from the Veil that would lead to all new sorts of depravity.

 

[Ekolite]

Obviously I meant a big theft, or the stealing of some ancient heirloom etc not just pick-pocketing lol.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I guess the best way to describe the difference between the Tablets of Bambur and the Code of Junil is that one is a more primitive "thou shalt not" while the other is "the right path is...". And I am horribly inarticulate to address such a difficult topic. If the moderators think this is flamebait, please remove as you please.

The RoK I'd imagine has a more ancient set of right and wrong that is a little removed from the standards we have today. In ancient times, morality was defined as duty to your community, staying in your place in society, upholding religious rituals, working hard... etc. ideas that help a somewhat honourable society survive. There's no concept of a "good person", only "good king", "good servent", and the concept of "good" means whether you have upheld your role or not. If you have not, then you were bad, even though it was from circumstances that was beyond your control. People would recognise that sometimes it was impossible for you to be a "good farmer", but you're still a "bad farmer".

Think of it as what morals meant in pre-Homeric times.

As to why RoK turns evil civs neutral... let's just say many of the commandments would outright BAN evil practices. What it does not do is attempt to explain why something is right and wrong.

Concepts like compassion, charity, redemption or justice are much more complicated and slow to develop. I guess to highlight what the RoK commandments do NOT encompass, I'll use our own world's concept of sacrifice and Sin. Sacrificing for gods to appease anger or prey for a good harvest has been in existance since forever, really. I would imagine Kilmorph will act much like one of the pagan gods, and her temples would routinely demand sacrifice to keep her favour (no little animals, of course!!). Then, in Christianity, our ultimate sin was paid for with an infinite sacrifice, both literal and symbolic. Maybe Kilmorph did accept an ultimate sacrifice from the dwarves, I don't know. But in Islam, however, they've moved even further, because they realise that while we should not be held guilty for the sins of others, even if we are in its karma-like effects, we cannot be "redeemed" by sacrificing others either. That's why they ask for forgiveness from Allah directly.

(of course, Junil is not The One, and that causes problems...)

And of course, whether you agree with the above statement or not, we've just entered a whole new level of morality.

 

[wilboman]

In a world like Erebus, I would argue that "sin" constitutes "doing things that are doing the opposed god(s) favours and/or hurting your god's cause".

Thus, depending on what religion you worship, the register of sins would be wildly different.

 

[zup]

And the social effects would depend on whom your neighbors worship. Seems simple to me.