Tall Science victory

[theozagem]

Hey guys, im looking for some tips on a tall science victory on deity:

the game:

I recently tried one with Rome on a pangea map, had a crazy ammount of weath and no neighbours nearby, so i went fast NC(turn ~65) followed by rushbuying 2 settlers and settling the cities 6 tiles apart on the best locations i could find (one near mountain). By turn ~70 i had my three cities settled (no good dirt to justify a fourth one)

I settled great scientists until plastics (not sure thats the turning point) which gave me like 7 academies in my capital (size 30). The other great scientists i bulbed as soon as they came out (not sure thats the right thing to do)

Techwise, luxury techs-->philosophy-->civil service-->education-->machinery-->Printing Press(stole astronomy)-->scietnfic theory-->industrialization-->biology-->flight(had to defend myself)-->plastics-->atomic theory-->advanced ballistics(had to nuke and puppet a hunnic city with 6 uranium near my capital)-->satellites-->nanotechnology--->particle physics

Policywise went full tradition followed by pratonage opener and the +20 resting points with City States to get all the friendly bonuses, then full rationalism asap. I went order hoping i would get friendly with other order civs but in the end they turned they ideologies because of the pressure and i ended up alone in order, making me think if i should have gone freedom instead. I was tech leader by renassaince and so relocated all my spies to rig election on city states and protect my capital.

I managed to get tower of pisa and PT for the scientists, so i think i did well on the wonder side of things. I ended up with capital size 30, 2nd city size 19 and 3rd city size 15. Moneywise, i always rush bought science buildings asap, and soem other buildings with the spare money, which was not much because i was making roughly 150 gpt even with all my caravans and east india and stuff. By turn 250 i was making ~900 bpt and by turn 300 i was making 1000 bpt, running all specialists possible.

i managed to reach satelites by 280 or something, immeadiatly building hubble and by that time i faith bought 3 more great scientists and rushed my way in the lower part of the tech tree almost getting nanotechnology, but by turn 300 i still needed a couple 10 turn tech (telecommunications and mobiletatics) from the upper part, plus the particle physics i was saving oxford for. I did have a spare GE to rush the last spaceship part

Buut, greece had all CS allied and 30000 gold stored, and the first world leader thing came out some 10 turns before i could tech everything i needed. I did try to buy every city state i could, but i was embargoed by the greek and just didnt have the cash

my thoughts:

1. I really think i should have doen more RAs, but i just couldnt DoF anybody (even though i never started a war or did anything to get diplo hits, except defending all my friendly city states when civs demanded tributes). Diplomacy certainly was a killer in this game (No RA's plus people emabargoing me). Maybe its not worth going patronage after all to take all these hits?

2. I had a long war with the huns but decided to go defensive in the whole tall cities dont go wide concept. Maybe i should have conquered his cities? im not sure i can win a sicence victory with just 3 cities, cause i dont see anyway i could rise my BPT as i had every science building, every specialist i could, full rationalism etc.

3. I didnt build many trading posts, instead focusing in academies and food in the capital and heavy production on 2nd and 3rd cities to keep up the building spam and produce units so i could survive the wars i had to face. Not sure that's the right thing to do.

I really hope you guys can help me improving my science victory time =P

 

[adwcta]

1. Give them gifts. They come around quick. Seriously, a 5gpt tribute is usually sufficient, and a 10gpt tribute will seal the deal unless they absolutely hate you. RAs are more valuable than that, especially in the beginning when you haven't out-teched the AI yet. RAs are very necessary (okay, not necessary, but very helpful).
2. Nope, tall is fine. 3 cities is enough. But, if you take a city down to 0 health for a couple of turns and kill their entire army, you can force AI to sue for peace and then they'll gift you a city. So, if you can, why not? Not necessary though. But having a 4th city is nice.
3. That's fine. Trading posts are a luxury. I'd switch to them around Atomic Era, especially if you're looking at a possible AI diplo victory.

I would have timed RAs to pop after I entered information era, and delayed entering until I had the atomic era techs done, at the start of a voting cycle (so you have 30 turns to finish up the rest of the techs before the vote), also would have saved some GSs and faith bought more for the rest.

Did you go Freedom? If so, you could take something like 5 CSs from a civ with the money saved from not buying the parts immediately as an emergency measure. I've never had an issue preventing an AI diplo victory though, since taking 5 CS is more than enough to stop them. Also, if you see it coming, you could have spent money to bribe civs to take out city states instead of each other. usually takes less resources to do that.

 

[Deau]

my thoughts:

1. I really think i should have doen more RAs, but i just couldnt DoF anybody (even though i never started a war or did anything to get diplo hits, except defending all my friendly city states when civs demanded tributes). Diplomacy certainly was a killer in this game (No RA's plus people emabargoing me). Maybe its not worth going patronage after all to take all these hits?

2. I had a long war with the huns but decided to go defensive in the whole tall cities dont go wide concept. Maybe i should have conquered his cities? im not sure i can win a sicence victory with just 3 cities, cause i dont see anyway i could rise my BPT as i had every science building, every specialist i could, full rationalism etc.

3. I didnt build many trading posts, instead focusing in academies and food in the capital and heavy production on 2nd and 3rd cities to keep up the building spam and produce units so i could survive the wars i had to face. Not sure that's the right thing to do.

I really hope you guys can help me improving my science victory time =P

The more RAs the merrier but it can be done without. You shouldn't aim to finish rationalism asap unless you have waves and waves of multiple RAs. Instead, after rationalism opener+secularism, consider going for scholasticism in patronage. They will usually be worth a 7-15% increase to your science.

7 planted GS is an alarming indicator that freedom might be better than order. The wider the better order is but with 7 settled GSs and only 3 cities, the shear science from order would've been only slightly better whereas freedom trade routes and units dumping would've enabled you to counter Alex and seriously, rush-bought spaceship parts >> GEed spaceship parts.

As pointed above, more cities isn't bad. However, be seriously selective about the cities you grab. I recently replayed an easy map to see how beneficial going wider would be and changed my 4 city tall opener to a 7 city tall where my 3 picked cities where 3 capitals from other civs yet the net gain towards victory wasn't nearly as outstanding as I expected. The 5% cost increase kicks in as you get the city so those 10-15 turns where the city generates 0 output are costly. The later in the game you take a new city, the lesser the gain. I would actually probably sell late game cities earned through war for additional CS friendships over widening.

Other than that, I recommend growth over TP anytime for SV. I only ever TP a few jungles if I happen to have them. I'd probably have tried to grow your satellite cities closer to 20 pop, even if it means having to rush-buy some infrastructure.

 

[Falconiano]

1. Give them gifts.

This.

Tributes can make the AI immediately request DoF the next turn if bright-green We've traded recently.
GPTs are not the only way, even ONE horse is enough if early enough.
They can also be used to make a non-worrying Civ to dominate a worrying Civ i.e. have Assyria conquer that pesky Poland in pre-classical age with a 5gpt gift.

 

[theozagem]

Thanks for the tips.

About finishing rationalism, saying i cant make many RAs like the case presented here, should i leave the finisher for the two final techs along with oxford? (timing with sidney opera or something). I have no idea if that's more beakers than what i would get for the +50% RAs.

I also read about people using oxford for plastics, i had in mind that the later the better..thus saving for particle physics..any thoughts on that?

 

[glory7]

from what you wrote, your strategy itself looks fine - it seems that your timings (public schools, labs, or secularism timing) are bit late. I guess it from 1. you reached satellite t280, which is late, and 2. you planted 7 GS before labs - in most cases, do not plant GS after sci theory, and 7 GS before labs means that your lab timing is too late.

It would be nice if you keep track of important timelines - both for your game and for people who might provide you tips. In particular, note 1. university timing, 2. secularism timing, 3. public schools timing, 4. labs timing, 5. Apollo timing.

 

[Harald Hairfair]

Since the thread is open I'd like to ask some questions myself(don't want to hijac your thread but I was gonna make the same thread as you so...)

I just tried my first Deity game, going for SV with Venice. I bailed at a DV at turn 268 because right then, runaway China had already built engine and 3 x SS Boosters.
I played on to see when he would build the rest but he didn't build any more. At turn 290 I dropped a and quit.
So when does AI usually win SV if they do? Or any predictions on when China would win in this scenario?
I would finish the spaceship around turn 285, hard building all parts in capital If I had dared to continue(went freedom, but I have to work harder on my culture gain).

Anyway I'm gonna try again, I failed miserably growing my city this time. Just found out at turn 200 that you could send food from puppeted cities duh
Also wasted some serious gold upgrading my fleet of Galeas to Frigates because I thought London would make a nice addition to my empire. Turns out, the only wonder London had at the time was the Great Library...

Bonus Question: When AI is afraid of you, good thing or bad thing? Hilarious that Shaka got scared of my nuke

 

[adwcta]

The AI will do stupid things like "oh I am at war, I need troops, let's not build the last spaceship part and win the game". Or, it'll have pathing problems getting the part to the capital, or choose to build it in a super-low production city. It's very very bad at building the spaceship. It's pretty good at teching to the techs though. I'm not even sure if the AI actually uses the Order/Freedom 3rd tier tenants.

In G&K I've seen the AI delay the last 2 parts of a spaceship by as much as 90 turns.

 

[Fire0rb]

@Harald are these quick or standard speed timings?
Normally the Deity AI is able to get a win Turn 290-310 when they are not runaway with very few cities on standard speed.
I had a game where Sejong only stayed on 4 cities and finished SV on Turn 250. Fastest win time i have seen till now in BNW.
Otherwise when you bribe then into wars and they spam cities they are much slower due to the 5% penalty. And Nukes always help

And yes, afraid comps are funny.

 

[Harald Hairfair]

I play Standard speed. China was at war with Shaka and the block of freedom Civs, so I guess the parts would have been delayed, and I could have pursued a Science victory. China had many cities and when he clunked out spaceship parts every second turn I got really nervous, even though he was only 1 tech ahead of me.
Oh well, gonna try to finish faster next time

 

[Fire0rb]

Well the booster are easy to get if you have the apollo program. the other parts are the ones to come by
And Deity Science Finish below Turn 300 are normally solid in BNW