Tall vs Wide

[salty mud]

My knowledge of Civ V is lacking somewhat compared to Civ IV. I keep hearing these two terms; Tall empires and Wide empires. Am I right in believing the basic difference is that tall empires have a few, largely populated cities, while wide empires have more, fewer populated cities?

Which civilisations are best to go tall and wide, and what advantages does one bring over the other? Is the decision to go tall or wide dependant on the map and situation, or chosen before the game even starts?

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Yes, your assumtion is correct.
Several things are influenced by the decion to go tall or wide.

(1) Social policies:
Culture requirement for new social policies increase with each city founded (puppets do NOT increase this!). Overall, wide empires will require more culture and receive SPs a bit slower than tall ones.

In addition, some SPs are tailored for tall and wide strategies:
Tradition - tall: Some benefits are only applied for the first 4 cities.
Liberty - wide: Reduces culture cost from number of cities and grants happiness per city.
Order - wide: HUGE benefits for a large empire.


(2) National wonders:
National wonders require a certain building in every city of your civilization, so tall empires are usually faster to build them. In addition, the required amount of hammers increases with the number of cities.

In general, a national wonder is worth 2-3 mediocre developed cities, so tall empires can use the quicker construction to compete with wide ones.


(3) Victory conditions:
Tall empires have an easier time for culture victories, while wide empires are more suited for conquest (at least imho). In general, thanks to the additional happiness in G&K, wide empires will get an advantage over tall ones in the (very) late game - but most tall empires will have finished utopia or the space ship before that really becomes to unbalanced.


(4) Playstyle and preference:
Some people like to play with many smaller cities, others like a few (or even one) mega city. It is just a personal preference, and unlike in previous CIV games, you are not necessarily having a hard time for staying small.

Personally, I usually play OCC or tall with up to 4 cities. Easy to manage for a peaceful player.


As for the different civilizations, everyone can go tall or wide. Some UA or buildings are more suited for a certain playstile, but overall there is probably no CIV where you would have to say "ALWAYS go wide / tall".

My personal list (subjective!) of possible CIV strategies:
Maya - wide (Pyramids grant immense early game benefits)
Ethiopia - tall (their UA makes military defence much easier for a small empires)
Arabia - wide (trade routes & bazar bonus)
Egypt - tall (wonder spamming super city/cities)
Korea - tall (mass specialists)
Carthage - wide (early game trade routes & bonus hammers with free harbours, watermaps only)
France - wide (early game culture bonus can negate the increased culture cost somewhat)

India is a somewhat strange case:
On the one hand you receive 6 per city (instead of 4), but pop is halved.
So while India starts very slow and has to play tall in the early game, it has enormous potential for going wide once you have the first happiness buildings.

Best tall CIV imho: Korea
Best wide CIV imho: Maya

 

[salty mud]

That's a a very useful post, thank you. Sometimes ingame happiness is very hard to come by, so Tall empires seem the most useful. But then again, sticking to 3 or 4 cities just doesn't have that 'Civilisation' feel to it, if you know what I mean.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The map setup is indeed important. Luxuries & mercantile city states are very imporant to get enough for a wide empire.

But with G&K religion, you have an excellent feature to specialize into tall/wide and negate natural disatvanteges.

A sample setup for a REALLY wide empire:
+1 for each city of your religion.
+1 with religion & size 6+
+2 with religion & temple & size 5+
+2 with religion & garden
OR
+1 with religion & shrine & size 3+
OR
+2 after buying a pagoda for faith

So after a few turns, each and every new city can break even. Add +1 from liberty and (later on) +1 from order and you can settle as much as you like.

 

[salty mud]

I'm going to follow your advice and go for a Tall empire (since I usually place quite a few cities, I'm going Tall for a change) and try to use as many specialists as possible; I like micromanaging my cities for specialists.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

In that case you should totally pick Korea. It is one of the strongest CIVs when it comes to science (Babylon has a stronger early game, but Korea catches up later on). Thanks to their UA, it is equally well equipped for cultural victories as well. If you do not own the DLC, you might want to try Maya (early science/religion), Aztec (+15% food from floating gardens = more specialists) or Egypt (wonder spam).

As for a strategy, I would strongly recommend Tabernak's 4 city tradition opening.

 

[SouljahAtWar]

India is a somewhat strange case:
On the one hand you receive 6 per city (instead of 4), but pop is halved.
So while India starts very slow and has to play tall in the early game, it has enormous potential for going wide once you have the first happiness buildings.

Are you kidding me? India for wide? How is that remotely possible without completely breaking your economy? I almost always play with culture with India, and playing wide is simply not possible; I always play tall. India's UA is the only UA that has a penalty, designed to only play tall, and I've learned a hard and punishing lesson not to even consider wide with India.

 

[JamesCivFan]

Are you kidding me? India for wide? How is that remotely possible without completely breaking your economy? I almost always play with culture with India, and playing wide is simply not possible; I always play tall. India's UA is the only UA that has a penalty, designed to only play tall, and I've learned a hard and punishing lesson not to even consider wide with India.

If you can grow your population up to a certain number in each city, you can easily go wide with India. In fact, if you see around here in the forums, India is considered the cheesiest civ to go wide with.

 

[Tabarnak]

In fact, if you see around here in the forums, India is considered the cheesiest civ to go wide with.

That was before the courthouse bug. Still doable but slower to start. If you can keep happiness afloat while you grow cities to 4 you will be in a good shape.

 

[JamesCivFan]

Yes, that was always the case with India, I agree. Grow the city to 4 population, move on to the next, as you said. It used to be easier, but it's still doable.

 

[Draug]

Is it still considered going Tall if you Puppet a bunch of cities along the way?

I'm playing a game as Egypt, and had a great location for 3 or 4 cities. But, as I became dominate, my two neighbors began to hate me and eventually went to war against me. As I defeated them over time, I puppeted some of the cities, but couldn't resist Annexing the best ones.

Now, my so called Tall empire plan has ended with about 8 cities and about 6 puppeted cities! I'm about to enter the Industrial Age, and am winning the game, so it should turn out ok. But, I'm tempted to re-start the game at turn 0 and really focus on staying Tall.

How does one resist the urge to expand once the 4 original cities are doing well? I can't seem to just sit and watch my rival neighbors take more good land for cities.

 

[Esperr]

Is it still considered going Tall if you Puppet a bunch of cities along the way?

I'm playing a game as Egypt, and had a great location for 3 or 4 cities. But, as I became dominate, my two neighbors began to hate me and eventually went to war against me. As I defeated them over time, I puppeted some of the cities, but couldn't resist Annexing the best ones.

Now, my so called Tall empire plan has ended with about 8 cities and about 6 puppeted cities! I'm about to enter the Industrial Age, and am winning the game, so it should turn out ok. But, I'm tempted to re-start the game at turn 0 and really focus on staying Tall.

How does one resist the urge to expand once the 4 original cities are doing well? I can't seem to just sit and watch my rival neighbors take more good land for cities.

Thats considered conquering wide, which is still tall, because your not in control of the cities, there not producing full unhappiness and there not increasing your culture cap.