Team 2K

[Linklite]

I'm not sure of the exact roles then different companies have. What is it that 2K actually does for Civ VI?

I was really unimpressed with my interaction with them recently, and I just want to be sure what they are actually responsible for.

 

[InsidiousMage]

The are the publisher of the game and quoting Wiki they...

They often finance the development, sometimes by paying a video game developer (the publisher calls this external development) and sometimes by paying an internal staff of developers called a studio. The large video game publishers also distribute the games they publish, while some smaller publishers instead hire distribution companies (or larger video game publishers) to distribute the games they publish. Other functions usually performed by the publisher include deciding on and paying for any licenses used by the game; paying for localization; layout, printing, and possibly the writing of the user manual; and the creation of graphic design elements such as the box design. Some large publishers with vertical structure also own publishing subsidiaries (labels).

So, basically, the pay for everything that it takes to actually make a game.

 

[Linklite]

The are the publisher of the game and quoting Wiki they...



So, basically, the pay for everything that it takes to actually make a game.

So, they just pay Firaxis to make the game? Why do we go through 2K to report bugs then?

 

[Josephias]

Probably because 2K, as a publisher of many games has a much bigger front-end customer response, that may handle minor queries quickly (FAQ), and then handle to Firaxis these they deem relevant.

Of course the filter may have other, more obscure ends, but in the end, you are buying the game [note: actually, the rights to use the game] to 2K, not FXS, so it’s really to 2K to who you can complain, and 2K reserves the right to ask FXS to go on one direction or another.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Firaxis is a development studio. That's a team of programs, artists, producers, internal QA engineers, and others who actually "make the game."

But shipping a multimedia product is much more than purely creating it. Farmers don't just grow food, they have to store it, find a buyer, ship it, and these days run farmer's markets for promotion. They probably need help doing all of that so they can focus on the planting, growing, and harvesting side; plus, they need a financial partner to front the capital investment required to farm.

Just over half the average AAA game budget is spent on marketing. Attending trade shows and doing media events/previews is critical. The portals for hiring staff, handling HR, interacting with public support tickets, and running social media are massively complex systems that take a huge investment to run halfway right. The distribution channels and online storefronts get in some ways easier but also more complex every year. Every one of these fields is outside the scope of even an established+successful studio like Firaxis.

tl;dr - They do the "business side", including interacting with customer problems.

 

[Futumch]

They're the ones who are responsible for that "online policies agreement" thingy which I always dismiss when starting Civ 6. So annoying.

 

[InsidiousMage]

So, they just pay Firaxis to make the game? Why do we go through 2K to report bugs then?

What Chocolate Pi said. Publishers always take of customer interactions because they staffed to do so. It's also a works out better because publishers publish multiple games so things like scale come into play making it cheaper to run everything through one service instead of having to have one customer service department per game. The process for taking in bug and crash reports is always going to be the same regardless of the game so even if Firaxis did handles the process wouldn't improve because there wouldn't be anything that could be changed, which I think gets to the heart of your question.

 

[tekjunkie28]

Id like to see publishers go away. They are the reason why we have such bland bug filled games for the most part. Its in the best interest for a studio to just have a marketing manager.... Its not hard to ship a game when all you need to do is upload it to steam. Ofcourse thats assuming you already took care of the advertising, which the marketing manager/team should be doing. I like this model solely for the fact that most of my money would presumably go to the studio. Publishers do have good sides but its more like a double edged sword with one side super sharp, lol.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Id like to see publishers go away. They are the reason why we have such bland bug filled games for the most part. Its in the best interest for a studio to just have a marketing manager.... Its not hard to ship a game when all you need to do is upload it to steam. Ofcourse thats assuming you already took care of the advertising, which the marketing manager/team should be doing. I like this model solely for the fact that most of my money would presumably go to the studio. Publishers do have good sides but its more like a double edged sword with one side super sharp, lol.

Games like Civ cost too much for a studio to make on their own, hence the need for publishers in the first place. Every dollar spent on publishing the game needs to be recouped by someone. Sure, smaller studios can self publish some games but Firaxis can't because it's too expensive and Civ would end up having to cost like a $100 or something because the cost of actually publishing can't be spread out over multiple titles from different developers. It's the same reason why publishers and producers exist in every industry, they have a purpose and there are good ones and bad ones and you just have to hope the stuff you like is made by one of the good ones. As for the bolded part, that's not the publisher's fault, it because of the need for constant and ever increasing profits that effect basically any company nowadays.

 

[Linklite]

which I think gets to the heart of your question.

Basically, there have been serious bugs on the Switch version which significantly impact game play, and they've been there for over a year now. After wasting my time because they evidently didn'tread the reports, they just fobbed me off with "We can't see what's actually being done, but we're confident that someone, somewhere, somehow, might be dealing it", then classed the issue as resolved.

I was curious as to who had what role. It seems that it's a waste of time reporting bugs because they just have someone pretending to care while discretely binning the report.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Basically, there have been serious bugs on the Switch version which significantly impact game play, and they've been there for over a year now. After wasting my time because they evidently didn'tread the reports, they just fobbed me off with "We can't see what's actually being done, but we're confident that someone, somewhere, somehow, might be dealing it", then classed the issue as resolved.

I was curious as to who had what role. It seems that it's a waste of time reporting bugs because they just have someone pretending to care while discretely binning the report.

PS4 player and I've had similar issues. Check out the link in my signature if you want the details. I seriously doubt that if the CS team was tied directly to Firaxis that they would be anymore forthcoming. Their job is to report issues to the developers, not provide detailed reports the customers about the status of the game. They can't act as a go-between for the players and developers because they would be way too burdensome and expensive so they have to try and get enough details so the developers can fix the issue. Personally, it seems like the level of detail needed from the player is too burdensome but whether that's standard industry practice, a 2K directive, or something Firaxis asked for I have no idea.

Another issue that is Aspyr is handling the console ports, not Firaxis, so who knows how that is affecting things.

 

[Linklite]

PS4 player and I've had similar issues. Check out the link in my signature if you want the details. I seriously doubt that if the CS team was tied directly to Firaxis that they would be anymore forthcoming. Their job is to report issues to the developers, not provide detailed reports the customers about the status of the game. They can't act as a go-between for the players and developers because they would be way too burdensome and expensive so they have to try and get enough details so the developers can fix the issue. Personally, it seems like the level of detail needed from the player is too burdensome but whether that's standard industry practice, a 2K directive, or something Firaxis asked for I have no idea.

Another issue that is Aspyr is handling the console ports, not Firaxis, so who knows how that is affecting things.

I read through the thread. To be clear, I was perfectly polite to the agent. I may have been blunt (but still using clean language, no name calling, etc) on the review they asked me for, but I was always polite.

I can understand them not knowing with recent bugs (for example, the monopoly report screen), but some bugs have been there for a year or more now - they clearly haven't resolved it, they should be able to say that it's being worked on, delayed until NFP finishes or just abandoned.

The feeling is mostly compounded by the attitude. I'd provided an as in depth as possible explanation with screenshots that clearly demonstrated the various problems, then the agent basically asked for the exact same thing. He then gave me a list of things to do to check the problem wasn't my end (most of the bugs clearly weren't, he'd clearly not bothered to read either description), then asked me a third time for my screenshots, videos, and an in depth description of what I was doing before it happened (given that they were generic bugs that always occur with whichever leader, the fact that it was asked is proof that he wasn't actually engaging with what I was saying, and probably not reading the email in the first place) means that my suspicion is that Firaxis/Aspyre will never even get the report.

If in a couple of months the bugs are all fixed, I'll eat my words and apologise. Right now, it feels as though they're not even bothering, and I'm probably going to stay away from their games. I wanted to make sure I was blaming the right people, though.

On a related note, do you have issues on the PS4 where the roads won't render properly? And the HoF format record more than seven victories?

 

[InsidiousMage]

The feeling is mostly compounded by the attitude. I'd provided an as in depth as possible explanation with screenshots that clearly demonstrated the various problems, then the agent basically asked for the exact same thing. He then gave me a list of things to do to check the problem wasn't my end (most of the bugs clearly weren't, he'd clearly not bothered to read either description), then asked me a third time for my screenshots, videos, and an in depth description of what I was doing before it happened (given that they were generic bugs that always occur with whichever leader, the fact that it was asked is proof that he wasn't actually engaging with what I was saying, and probably not reading the email in the first place) means that my suspicion is that Firaxis/Aspyre will never even get the report.

To me it feels the CS people are forced to stick to a script and aren't allowed much room to actually engage with the customers from the limited experiences I've had with them, which would probably be a 2K policy. From my experience it seems like they don't have much knowledge of the games themselves, which reinforces the need to stick to the script, and that 2K doesn't give them a decent knowledge base to work with, just a list to do X,Y, and Z and repeat until criteria A,B, and C are met. Based on when I received some of my responses some the CS might not even be based in the US, which could lead to whole of bunch of language issues.

On a related note, do you have issues on the PS4 where the roads won't render properly? And the HoF format record more than seven victories?

The HoF bug has been an issue even since the PS4 version launched, for me anyway. Never keeps around more than 10 or so games but it's not something I've particularly cared about. As for the roads, I've haven't actually played the game since January but it wasn't an issue back then.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

First, I've never met a publisher with less stringent QA standards than their studios. After all, they are the ones who have to deal with returns and the financial backlash.

Second, funding: Games, like movies but worse, are objectively terrible business investments by any ordinary criteria. A normal business looking at a new venture might just get a loan from a bank; but no bank would touch a game project, even by an established studio. Over 90% of AAA game projects fail to produce a profit. Like Hollywood, the only way these projects can get funded is via some entity like a publisher, who specializes in exactly this sort of risk and has all of the infrastructure and expertise to minimize the dangers. (To the limited extent that they can...) Someone who is really to invest in something that they 100% expect to not turn a profit, but accept anyway because it somehow fits into their broader long-term market strategy or portfolio.

For context, I count just over 130 core Firaxis employees credited on base Civ VI. This does not include Firaxis management, Firaxis office staff, external QA, external tools or UI contractors, any of the music performance contributors, or anyone at 2K what-so-ever. My super rough back-of-the-envelope industry estimate (with just these details, and Baltimore being a mid-cost American city) would ballpark the total dev cost of (base game) Civ 6 at $28 million before marketing. That's a staggering investment, even for a game that is a "slam dunk" like Civ. Bigger "slam dunks" have backfired than Civ, that's for sure.

Speaking as a developer, I like to say that publishers are "the only adult in the room" in the game industry. Us silly kids are just trying to make games, usually with zero regards to the realities of business. It's always the publisher who has to be the bad guy and remind us that we actually have to meet milestones, make money, and to pull the plug when things are an irredeemable mess. They always get to be the messenger of any bad news, any everyone hates them for it. For every instance of bullcrap corporate meddling (loot boxes, ect.), there are a dozen cases behind the scenes of goobers like me steering the ship towards abject bankruptcy and the publisher having to swoop in to make sure we don't all die.

A game industry without 2K, EA, Activision, Nintendo, Sony, Eidos, Ubisoft, ect. would be one without games.

 

[Linklite]

To me it feels the CS people are forced to stick to a script and aren't allowed much room to actually engage with the customers from the limited experiences I've had with them, which would probably be a 2K policy. From my experience it seems like they don't have much knowledge of the games themselves, which reinforces the need to stick to the script, and that 2K doesn't give them a decent knowledge base to work with, just a list to do X,Y, and Z and repeat until criteria A,B, and C are met. Based on when I received some of my responses some the CS might not even be based in the US, which could lead to whole of bunch of language issues.

Entirely possible that foreign language might be an issue, the guy I was speaking to had an Indian name, but I don't like to jump to those conclusions based on that. Despite being British, for a period I spoke better Italian than many Italians (sadly not the case anymore). However, that's their business decision, not mine. Still, I hope that this is the case and that the case is being resolved, it was just a bad interface. I'd much rather be forced to eat my words a in a short while and apologise, and have a properly working game, than be right and have a somewhat broken one.

The HoF bug has been an issue even since the PS4 version launched, for me anyway. Never keeps around more than 10 or so games but it's not something I've particularly cared about. As for the roads, I've haven't actually played the game since January but it wasn't an issue back then.

Same for the Switch, sometimes it records, sometimes it doesn't. It only holds seven games though, and will replace one with the new one if you play more than 7. As for roads...

Not my screenshot, but it shows the same thing. They weren't always like that, but they changed about the time I got the XPs, about a year ago. Different colours for different types that match the colours of what they originally should have been. Railroads look almost identical to the above, which is the latest type of road.

First, I've never met a publisher with less stringent QA standards than their studios. After all, they are the ones who have to deal with returns and the financial backlash.

Second, funding: Games, like movies but worse, are objectively terrible business investments by any ordinary criteria. A normal business looking at a new venture might just get a loan from a bank; but no bank would touch a game project, even by an established studio. Over 90% of AAA game projects fail to produce a profit. Like Hollywood, the only way these projects can get funded is via some entity like a publisher, who specializes in exactly this sort of risk and has all of the infrastructure and expertise to minimize the dangers. (To the limited extent that they can...) Someone who is really to invest in something that they 100% expect to not turn a profit, but accept anyway because it somehow fits into their broader long-term market strategy or portfolio.

For context, I count just over 130 core Firaxis employees credited on base Civ VI. This does not include Firaxis management, Firaxis office staff, external QA, external tools or UI contractors, any of the music performance contributors, or anyone at 2K what-so-ever. My super rough back-of-the-envelope industry estimate (with just these details, and Baltimore being a mid-cost American city) would ballpark the total dev cost of (base game) Civ 6 at $28 million before marketing. That's a staggering investment, even for a game that is a "slam dunk" like Civ. Bigger "slam dunks" have backfired than Civ, that's for sure.

Speaking as a developer, I like to say that publishers are "the only adult in the room" in the game industry. Us silly kids are just trying to make games, usually with zero regards to the realities of business. It's always the publisher who has to be the bad guy and remind us that we actually have to meet milestones, make money, and to pull the plug when things are an irredeemable mess. They always get to be the messenger of any bad news, any everyone hates them for it. For every instance of bullcrap corporate meddling (loot boxes, ect.), there are a dozen cases behind the scenes of goobers like me steering the ship towards abject bankruptcy and the publisher having to swoop in to make sure we don't all die.

A game industry without 2K, EA, Activision, Nintendo, Sony, Eidos, Ubisoft, ect. would be one without games.

I don’t hate publishers, but I'm seeing a massive disconnect between what we the players are seeing and what is being done about it. These issues aren’t new (at least, not all are), and my experience with this is not positive. I really don't want a repeat of this. I mean, I don’t demand perfection, I have Skyrim and Oblivion which says something about my tolerance for bugs, but some of these things are gamebreaking, many have been going on for a long time now. I can't play Civ VI docked because they've bugged the governor screen where you assign where the governors so I can only select cities that are on the initial list - I can't scroll for cities further down on the list. I can get around that by using the touch screen, but that means I have to use it handheld.

I don't think these are issues are with Firaxis, because the PC doesn't seem to have these issues. But I'd be happy with a commitment that they're fixing it, even if they do have a lot on their plate and may take a while. Instead, it seems as though they are just plain ignoring the concerns. If this is what I can look forward to, I don't know if I want to part with my money for the experience again, especially as I don't have a guarantee that they won't let even worse bugs go. It's upto them if they want to unbreak my game so that I can have confidence in buying other games from them. Which is a shame, because I really enjoy Civ VI as a game, and would otherwise be a dead cert for buying Civ VII and any other content they release for Civ VI.

 

[Navelgazer]

Some analogies in other media would be like when an author or team of authors write a book, and the publisher prints it and gets it in bookstores, publicizes it, sets up book tours around it, etc. Or in TV, a production company makes a show, and the network airs it (and, again, publicizes it, etc.) Film has production companies and distributors on the more independent side of things, while major studios will combine the two.

 

[bbbt]

Basically, there have been serious bugs on the Switch version which significantly impact game play, and they've been there for over a year now. After wasting my time because they evidently didn'tread the reports, they just fobbed me off with "We can't see what's actually being done, but we're confident that someone, somewhere, somehow, might be dealing it", then classed the issue as resolved.

I was curious as to who had what role. It seems that it's a waste of time reporting bugs because they just have someone pretending to care while discretely binning the report.

If this is a Switch specific bug that's not in the base (i.e. Windows) version, you might want to try submitting your bug report directly to Aspyr: https://support.aspyr.com/hc/en-us/articles/360056042952-How-to-Submit-a-Bug-Report

Confusingly, 2k is the publisher. Firaxis is the developer - but only develops on Windows. All other versions (Mac, Console, iOS) are done by Aspyr, a porting shop.

 

[Linklite]

If this is a Switch specific bug that's not in the base (i.e. Windows) version, you might want to try submitting your bug report directly to Aspyr: https://support.aspyr.com/hc/en-us/articles/360056042952-How-to-Submit-a-Bug-Report

Confusingly, 2k is the publisher. Firaxis is the developer - but only develops on Windows. All other versions (Mac, Console, iOS) are done by Aspyr, a porting shop.

Ok thanks, I'll try that. 2K was what one of the mods recommended, and it had a dedicated section for the Switch, but I'll try Aspyr directly.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Still, I hope that this is the case and that the case is being resolved, it was just a bad interface. I'd much rather be forced to eat my words a in a short while and apologise, and have a properly working game, than be right and have a somewhat broken one.

The constant crashes on the PS4 were acknowledged in a recent patch and the game was significantly more stable when I played in January to the point were I was able to finish a game with zero crashes. From the September DLC to the January DLC the game would just constantly crash in the late game to the point where finishing a game was a clash of will between you and the game. I have a lot of sympathy for Firaxis attempting to release content on a monthly basis over the past year but they decided to do it and if that results in a broken product that is ultimately on them. They had plenty of opportunities to change the release schedule but didn't so my sympathy will only go so far. Honestly, all of the issues coupled with the lackluster few releases have really dampened my enthusiasm for the game.

 

[bbbt]

Ok thanks, I'll try that. 2K was what one of the mods recommended, and it had a dedicated section for the Switch, but I'll try Aspyr directly.

I mean I think 2K should've been the appropriate place to submit, but there's clearly some sort of disconnect there, so hopefully you at least get a better response from Aspyr.