Team Python- Monarch Training!

[barron of ideas]

MY accusations? I made none, and am, I hope, smart enough not to make any of Sirian.

On the other hand, should it be found in a court of final adjudication to be weed to make warriors when you could have say, immortals or better, you will bear the burden of having advised to the contrary. Not disbanding is potentally different than continuing to build. Sunk costs are sunk, and should not be charged against current decisions.

But new units are another decision entirely, and call for decsion criteria that maximize the chance of victory. Clearly an army of only warriors will not optimize your chances of victory if you and your opponents have advanced past despotism

(Checks reasoning, to get to Monarchy or Republic likley the AIs will have Iron Working and Horseback Riding and certainly Warror Code, hence horsemen, swordsmen, and archers. These eat warriors for breakfast (and lunch and dinner).

If you can make something better than a Warrior, by and large (except for the Warrior upgrade, which slows your research sometimes alarmingly to get mney to do it)) it would be in your interests to build the better unit. Not all the time. If the warrior is free and the other unit isn't (disrupts production of a settler you need now) then there is a decision wher the warrior may be the right choice. But it might not.

Of course, if Sirian decides to do it, it was the right choice, if not, then you could be the scapegoat. QED.

Best wishes, do not take what is said here in the wrong spirit. On the other hand, if there are hard feelings, I am sorry. But better you than Sirian.

 

[ControlFreak]

Accusation was the wrong word. My post was in jest an not intended to ruffle your feathers if that is what I did.

I agree that building warriors until the end of time is a mistake. I also made the mistake of indicating that this capital could make warriors after despotism. Who cares if it can. I was in a much better position with the other game that I referenced and for that game, it made sense to build a warrior with each settler, during despotism. Since at most, I could make a settler every 4 turns, getting the extra warrior was getting the warrior for "free"

The point I was trying (in vain) to make is that a "settler" factory, can often be more than just a settler factory. If you can get a settler PLUS a warrior in 4 turns, why not do that? Otherwise, just getting a settler every 4 turns when you could have both is wasteful.

Having played my last SG with Sirian, I know that he would rather let the capital get larger, building units and then build settlers in rapid succession (every other turn for example) as the population drops back down. (That depends on the situation and shield loss, obviously.) Also, he avoids Worker Factories, considering them an exploit. (But I think he is ok with settler factories. )

If I read your post wrong, barron, I'm sorry. If you want to blame me for the way you're playing your game, I don't mind. Go right ahead.

 

[ControlFreak]

BTW Thanks goes to Qitai for making me realize a combo settler factory is even possible. He first announced it in:
GOTM20 Spoiler 1

 

[hotrod0823]

Also, he avoids Worker Factories, considering them an exploit. (But I think he is ok with settler factories. )

Well the main difference of why settler factories are o.k. vs. worker factories isn't that building workers isn't a good thing but its why you are building workers. A city site that builds workers forever just to build workers to merge into other cities. It goes back to what does a worker cost to build vs. what it adds to a city when it is added later in the game.

 

[LordKestrel]

Originally posted by amirsan

Jimmy is up, GO!

I'll grab it when I get home tonight.

 

[amirsan]

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Being a bit bored at work, I captured a screen shot to help illustrate what Amirsan is talking about with the settler factory:

Indeed, if you irrigate the river plains you will have a 4 turn settler factory. Irrigating the plains is required because at size six, the sixth worker only can make 1food per turn (fpt). Since he eats 2fpt, you go from +5fpt to +4fpt and can't grow in 2 turns.

Here's how I think about settler factories. Each tile worked requires 2 fpt and 0spt to support the citizen. That means everything over 2fpt is a bonus, (anything under is a minus). All sheilds are bonus. I label each tile with +fpt, +spt as indicated in red above.

First 5 citizens:
Irrigated FP = +1fpt, +0spt.
Irrigated Wheat = +1,+1
Mined BG = +0, +2
Forested Deer = +0,+2
Irrigated Cow = +1, +2

Capital (requires 0fpt) = +2fpt, +1spt

Sixth citizen:
Irrigated Plain = +0,+1

Now here's the trick. Because of the order of calculations inbetween turns, the game will determine food/growth first, then shields. If the city grows in between turns, the extra citizen is added BEFORE shields are calculated.

That means in a normal 4 turn 5-to-7 settler factory, the first turn uses 5 citizens, the second turn uses the food of 5 citizens but the sheilds of 6 citizens, the third turn uses food and sheilds of 6 citizens and the fourth turn uses food of 6 citizens and the shields of 7 citizens.

In this case
Turn: Food/Sheilds
1 5/8
2 5/9
3 5/9
4 5/10
Total 20/36

That means you are wasting a half a warrior for every settler. What can you do about that. Not much until you get out of despotism, unfortunately. Your best option would be to have founded another town that could use the mined BG. Your fifth citizen could have worked another irrigated plains instead yielding
Turn: Food/Sheilds
1 5/7
2 5/8
3 5/8
4 5/9
Total 20/32
And allowing the second city to be making +2spt each turn. With it's captial and no other citizens, this city would make a warrior every 4 turns to escort your 32shield settler every turn.

That is the reason that no overlap is not the best for despotism.

In a better starting position, adding up the shields you might actually beable to build the warrior and the settler in the same town every four turns. Recently I had a capital that was shield rich and food rich. With a little micromanagement I switched back and forth the emphasis from shields (first turn) to food (second through fourth turn) and manage to build warrior/settler pairs every four turns using
Turn: Food/Sheilds
1 4/10 Built Warrior
2 6/9 Grow to 6
3 5/10
4 5/11 Grow to 7, build settler, drop to 5.
Total 20/32

Unfortunately your captial is not that good but it's pretty close. Once out of despotism, mining a hill will let you repeat what I did above.

Well done calculatons CF, very well done. I personally just go by trial and error, my mind is tired enough from school. I am glad you are participating while your not in the roster, thank you.

 

[barron of ideas]

I would agree that a worker factory per se, with no other purpose, is well, exploitive.

Mostly, workers should come from cities stuck at population 6 before aquaducts, or at 12 before hospitals, when otherwise you would be losing the population growth that can't be shifted by MM into shields, or otherwise wasted. Waste is contrary to the wisdom revealed by master players. Who will remain unnamed here because they might not like it.

Once in a while, when you need a worker and can't buy or conquer several, you will just have to build one. Consider it an investment in the future roads, etc it will construct. And it is not always a permanent population loss. They can be merged back if that is the right thing to do in your situation.

Proper handling of workers is not the only thing, but it one of the most important things. As long as you realize automating them is weed, you have half the lesson. Again these lessons are revealed from on high, I did not invent the concepts, nor do I covet responsibility for doing so. They know who they are, and do not want just anyone mentioning their names.

 

[amirsan]

And thank you barron of ideas, I bet you got alot of ideas! Keep posting them but try not to argue about people not here to see. Maybe Sirian may jump in a tell whats true no? Ok, jimmy good luck .

 

[amirsan]

Also, he avoids Worker Factories, considering them an exploit. (But I think he is ok with settler factories. )

I do not say that worker factories are exploitive, infact I think they are just as important as settler factories. As hotrod said, they are especcially exploitive if sent into cities in the early game, though I do not think they are exploitive in the late game sinse you may have a tons of extra.

Worker factories are just as important as settlers becuase a city with no improvements become no use as the game goes on with the need of more shields, the more workers the better. Though personally my workers come from the city they work from and not one city, they would if you can handle it, ofcourse aside from the settler factory.

I would start with settler factory and add a worker here and there to make them both, though in our case we cannot do that becuase the population here is crtical (can't go to 7 becuase the granary will empty and cant go to 4 because not enough shields.

 

[GenMarshall]

Ok, Now I am confused after looking at that what CF posted.

 

[amirsan]

Ok, we just have to keep it over population 5 and make it finish when population 6 grows so then when it grows and finishes the settler, it will go back to population 5 and start over again.

When at five, you must keep the citizens on all bonuses (BGs, floodplain, wheat, game, cattle) then when hitting six a citizens must go on an irrigated river plain. at that point it should grow in two and sinish the settler in two.

Do you get it? Please tell me if you dont...

 

[LordKestrel]

Got it.

I'll try and work on that 4 turn factory .

 

[LordKestrel]

Do we have an updated dot map?

 

[LordKestrel]

As it stands, Karakorum will grow to size 7 in 3, but finish the settler in 2.
I'm tempted to give it a turn of disorder so that it gets an extra turn of food, to make it grow and produce the settler at the same time.

Any thoughts on this?

EDIT: Nevermind, the irrigation finished, so we're at 1/1 for growth and production right now

EDIT2: I've saved the game, and am waiting while we figure out what to do with this new settler. Karakorum is on a 4 turn roll, so we'll need a lot of dots

 

[GenMarshall]

Originally posted by amirsan
Do you get it? Please tell me if you dont...

I thinki I have got it now.

 

[ControlFreak]

Originally posted by jimmydean
EDIT: Nevermind, the irrigation finished, so we're at 1/1 for growth and production right now

There's another trick. If you have a worker that says it will be done in 1 turn, count that tile as improved for you micromanagement. The calculations compute worker turn first, then city growth, then city production. That's why you needed to start irrigation with both workers right away. 2 turns per worker X 2 workers = irrigatigation (4 worker turns). This was perfectly timed to coincide with the 2 turns it would take to grow from 5 to 6. Even if it was trial and error by amirsan,

Originally posted by CivGeneral
Ok, Now I am confused after looking at that what CF posted.

Can you tell me what confused you so that I can correct my communication problems for the next time? Glad to know you've got in now. What made the difference in your understanding?

 

[amirsan]

Originally posted by ControlFreak
Even if it was trial and error by amirsan,

I told you it will work .

@Jimmy, post a screenie of the land so I can update it, or anyone else before me .

 

[LordKestrel]

I'll be home in about 1 1/2 hours, so just hold tight.

 

[amirsan]

Okay, no problemo.

 

[LordKestrel]

http://home.comcast.net/~lordkestrell/pictures/TGPython_1375BC_zoomedout.jpg

Here is the current zoomed out view of our world. The purple dot is where the settler is moving to.