Tech and Civic boosts

[acluewithout]

I agree some of the specific Eurekas need work - some are too easy and some too hard. The kill x with y Eurekas are particularly annoying and silly.

Making Eurekas random would make the game much less strategic - the fixed Eurekas and fixed tech tree is what lets you adapt to the random map and so makes the map more important.

Multiple Eurekas for each tech would be confusing. Better to just rework some of the weaker Eurekas so they’re all “good”.

I think the wider problem is that they’re are just too many “quests” overall. Eurekas, Era Score (+Dedications), City States, Agendas. At this point, FXS should maybe get rid of random City State quests and make bonus envoys more predictable and logical - eg one for trading, one for clearing a nearby barb camp etc. Whatever. You sort of have that now already anyway given you get so many for liberating a City State.

It would be great if you got science and culture for neighbouring or trading with other Civs based on their and your relative tech. I think EU4 does something like that. Although, Civ does do that through the back door - if you’re near a Civ you’ll likely trade with them, and trade does give you science and culture; and being ahead or behind in techs relative to world era impacts research times. In the end, the game can only try to represent so much.

 

[Infixo]

Making Eurekas random would make the game much less strategic - the fixed Eurekas and fixed tech tree is what lets you adapt to the random map and so makes the map more important.

Map is generated randomly. Boosts are always the same.
There are 9 boosts of the type HAVE_X_IMPROVEMENTS that wants you to build a single specific improvement, connected with 9 specific techs.
And there are 5 boosts of the type IMPROVE_SPECIFIC_RESOURCE, which are connected with 5 specific techs.
The same every game. You know that even before you start a game. Where exactly is "strategy" in that?

 

[Arent11]

Making Eurekas random would make the game much less strategic - the fixed Eurekas and fixed tech tree is what lets you adapt to the random map and so makes the map more important.

The strategy of a randomized tech tree similar to alpha centauri, colonization or master of orion is that you would have to adapt to the changes in the tech tree. You would not always be able to do a swordsman rush, because it could happen that that technology is simply not readily available, but only comes at a later time. So, you would have to make do with horsemen, or with archers, or even play a defensive builder early game.

 

[acluewithout]

Map is generated randomly. Boosts are always the same.
There are 9 boosts of the type HAVE_X_IMPROVEMENTS that wants you to build a single specific improvement, connected with 9 specific techs.
And there are 5 boosts of the type IMPROVE_SPECIFIC_RESOURCE, which are connected with 5 specific techs.
The same every game. You know that even before you start a game. Where exactly is "strategy" in that?

The map is random. Its randomness then changes what is the optimal way through the fixed tech tree.

Or think of it this way. The tech tree is a tool box that lets you adapting to the map. You have a hammer, a screwdriver, a saw, but which tool you reach for at any point depends on the random map. The tools don’t change; only what use you put them to.

If I have a random map, and the tech tree or Eurekas are random so I have to relearn them every game, then it becomes very hard to parse what is the efficient or strategically smart way to play any particular situation. Instead of more strategy, I get less, because now there are too many variables.

 

[Arent11]

Or think of it this way. The tech tree is a tool box that lets you adapting to the map. You have a hammer, a screwdriver, a saw, but which tool you reach for at any point depends on the random map. The tools don’t change; only what use you put them to.

But in reality we don't know exactly what can be researched, we only have a very rough understanding what lies ahead. For example, we can try to research nuclear power, but we don't know whether that idea might work out beforehand.

It might be that you need ships to cross an ocean, but that tech is not available for research. So, you would have to solve that problem. One possibility would be to take a builder approach, develop your cities, use the available space. Another would be to trade technology with others, which is sadly not available in civilization 6.

 

[acluewithout]

... You would not always be able to do a swordsman rush, because it could happen that that technology is simply not readily available, but only comes at a later time...

My point is that the map already provides that random element. If the map doesn't give you Iron, guess what? You can't swordsmen rush. If you randomise the tech tree as well, then you need two things to fall your way - iron and the tech. Make the game too random and suddenly it's just snakes and ladders.

But in reality we don't know exactly what can be researched, we only have a very rough understanding what lies ahead. For example, we can try to research nuclear power, but we don't know whether that idea might work out beforehand.

It might be that you need ships to cross an ocean, but that tech is not available for research. So, you would have to solve that problem. One possibility would be to take a builder approach, develop your cities, use the available space. Another would be to trade technology with others, which is sadly not available in civilization 6.

Well, I'm certainly not going to defend the tech tree on the basis of realism. It's realistic enough, but it's clearly more driven by gameplay than reality.

 

[UWHabs]

My point is that the map already provides that random element. If the map doesn't give you Iron, guess what? You can't swordsmen rush. If you randomise the tech tree as well, then you need two things to fall your way - iron and the tech. Make the game too random and suddenly it's just snakes and ladders.



Well, I'm certainly not going to defend the tech tree on the basis of realism. It's realistic enough, but it's clearly more driven by gameplay than reality.

The tech tree realism also goes out the door when you consider that in 4000 BC you know exactly what paths you can take to get to nuclear fission, so yeah, it's obviously more about gameplay decisions.

And I do understand that having things too random is a cause for concern. Like I don't think I'd like a fully random tech tree, where some games iron working doesn't come until the spot that like Engineering is in now. But I do think there's an avenue for a little more randomness there too.

For example, one path I'm absolutely horrible on is the water mill -> construction -> Games and Recreation. Basically, I can absolutely never get an early enough water mill for the construction boost, which makes that tech too expensive for the Games and Rec boost. And combine that with the other "bad" boosts down in that lower part of the tech tree (I rarely build ancient walls, which delays engineering, which means I can't build an aqueduct, delaying military engineering, and you end up in a somewhat vicious cycle. It would be nice if there was a less-fixed way through that whole section of the tree, where maybe some games the boosts through there are all really easy to get, and maybe you actually could do a proper catapult rush, for instance.

 

[King Abbas]

I think this can seriously complicate the game and put off non hard-core players, but I think eurekas should be a prerequisite to research the technology.. we could have certain techs that start the game locked and you can only start researching them after getting their respective eurekas.

 

[steemroller]

I think this can seriously complicate the game and put off non hard-core players, but I think eurekas should be a prerequisite to research the technology.. we could have certain techs that start the game locked and you can only start researching them after getting their respective eurekas.

I like this. A lot.

BUT, it stirs a question that I hadn't considered before: how does the AI handle eurekas?

 

[Infixo]

BUT, it stirs a question that I hadn't considered before: how does the AI handle eurekas?

AI pursues most of the boosts (build x, have x, etc.) There are dedicated triggers and behavior trees used for that.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think this can seriously complicate the game and put off non hard-core players, but I think eurekas should be a prerequisite to research the technology.. we could have certain techs that start the game locked and you can only start researching them after getting their respective eurekas.

This would work ONLY if, as others have posted, the Eurekas/Bonuses are revised so they are actually pertinent to the Tech/Civic being 'researched' or Unlocked.
Furthermore, I would argue that it reinforces my argument for multiple Eurekas for each Tech/Civic - there is, after all, more than one reason to want better weapons (Bronze Working, Iron Working, Horseback Riding), or types of weapons (Archery, The Wheel), or to be able to go to sea (Seafaring, Ship Building), or keep track of things (Writing).
By combining the two, we get a 'semi-random' Tech/Civics Tree in that there are Multiple Paths up the trees, but the process is still related to what is going on in the game/on the map.

 

[NukeAJS]

For default settings, I think I'd prefer it to be toned down just a tiny bit -- 5%.

I find standard time games too short and epic games too long. Making small adjustments like eurekas/inspirations would probably help. It'd also give China a very tiny boost (but one I still think they need nonetheless).