PaperBeetle
Emperor
Well, that's how I've always used the term, but maybe it's me versus the community. 
Tech pace in HOF games
- Thread starter AnthonyIII
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AnthonyIII
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And this works towards wonders as well? Not just improvements? 
By short-rushing I meant what PaperBeetle refered to (this isn't to say that most people use the term the way we do). Note that if you don't want to disband a unit (I wouldn't recommend disbanded a worker unless it'll get captured otherwise next turn I guess... the only other cases where it might work well I don't know, and would come as extremely rare, I think), you first buy a worker for 80 gold. Then you buy say a barracks. Finally, you let the temple finish in 1 turn. Short-rushing only works for improvements. That said, there do exist cultural improvements in a 20k game which can get short-rushed.
It's great that you've taken this much interest Anthony! Please take all of my comments as constructively as you can.
The harbor might make sense in that case. Barracks or a unit might also in such a case.
You only have access to resources in your territory when you have a road going to them. Check the upper left-hand part of any cities screen which has a road to your capital. You don't have access rubber until you learn Replaceable Parts.
You might have trained a swordsman or a medieval infantry in some city. This isn't to say you should have done that, but just that you might have. I don't use civ-assist either. I only use MapStat which has suited my needs well.
Adding in workers can sometimes make sense. Don't disband workers unless they will get captured next turn. At most, in a Republic, you really only want units in towns that might get attacked. As others have pointed out Wealth only gives you gold. That can *indirectly* help research, but only indirectly. If you check the civilopedia, you'll see that the Heroic Epic gives you 4 culture per turn for only 200 shields, which we could say has a ratio of 2. The Pyramids, in contrast, gives you 4 culture per turn for 400 shields for a ratio of 1 (the Oracle gives your 4 culture per turn for 300 shields, if I recall correctly). 4 culture per turn for 200 shields makes for a very, very good deal in a 20k game. You generally want to build large culture per turn improvements for a small number of shields... in other words you want to build the improvements with a high cpt/shields ratio first... that is, provided that you won't lose a great wonder if you do so.
1. A bonus grassland square mined gives you two shields and two food. A forested grassland square gives you two shields also, but only one food. So, unless you plan to chop a forest for shields, always mine a bonus grassland square instead of foresting it. Forest only food bonus squares and regular grassland squares.
2. I see no benefit in having two workers asleep. Put them to work!
3. You aren't using one of the irrigated cows or the irrigated wheat square in Carthage. Though using the irrigated wheat square here would lower production (since it's irrigated) using the irrigated cow instead of a regular mined grassland wouldn't.
4. You've given an irrigated bonus grassland to Sabratha. This really would better go to the capital Carthage in a 20k game for more production in the capital.
5. You have 4 workers on an unroaded square near Sabratha. At most, you only need two to build the road. Generally try to build a road before you move multiple workers onto a square... except perhaps when dealing with jungles and marsh.
6. Irrigated wheat squares need mined during a GA for extra shield production, which I don't think you had at that point. You generally want to have an early Republic GA in a 20k game. Generally, it works better to irrigate a grassland cow and mine an irrigated wheat square.
7. It probably would do you good to do some deficit research with 227 in the bank.
8. I don't see why you want walls in Nagaski. A harbor, library, or military might serve you better there.
9. The 230 AD in Pacioli's game probably comes as one of the saves more comparable to your 410 AD. That said, without chopping any forests down, here's a 420 save which indicates more how you want your capital to look in a 20k game. I hope this helps.
It's great that you've taken this much interest Anthony! Please take all of my comments as constructively as you can.
Anthony III said:
The harbor might make sense in that case. Barracks or a unit might also in such a case.
Anthony III said:
You only have access to resources in your territory when you have a road going to them. Check the upper left-hand part of any cities screen which has a road to your capital. You don't have access rubber until you learn Replaceable Parts.
Anthony III said:
You might have trained a swordsman or a medieval infantry in some city. This isn't to say you should have done that, but just that you might have. I don't use civ-assist either. I only use MapStat which has suited my needs well.
Adding in workers can sometimes make sense. Don't disband workers unless they will get captured next turn. At most, in a Republic, you really only want units in towns that might get attacked. As others have pointed out Wealth only gives you gold. That can *indirectly* help research, but only indirectly. If you check the civilopedia, you'll see that the Heroic Epic gives you 4 culture per turn for only 200 shields, which we could say has a ratio of 2. The Pyramids, in contrast, gives you 4 culture per turn for 400 shields for a ratio of 1 (the Oracle gives your 4 culture per turn for 300 shields, if I recall correctly). 4 culture per turn for 200 shields makes for a very, very good deal in a 20k game. You generally want to build large culture per turn improvements for a small number of shields... in other words you want to build the improvements with a high cpt/shields ratio first... that is, provided that you won't lose a great wonder if you do so.
1. A bonus grassland square mined gives you two shields and two food. A forested grassland square gives you two shields also, but only one food. So, unless you plan to chop a forest for shields, always mine a bonus grassland square instead of foresting it. Forest only food bonus squares and regular grassland squares.
2. I see no benefit in having two workers asleep. Put them to work!
3. You aren't using one of the irrigated cows or the irrigated wheat square in Carthage. Though using the irrigated wheat square here would lower production (since it's irrigated) using the irrigated cow instead of a regular mined grassland wouldn't.
4. You've given an irrigated bonus grassland to Sabratha. This really would better go to the capital Carthage in a 20k game for more production in the capital.
5. You have 4 workers on an unroaded square near Sabratha. At most, you only need two to build the road. Generally try to build a road before you move multiple workers onto a square... except perhaps when dealing with jungles and marsh.
6. Irrigated wheat squares need mined during a GA for extra shield production, which I don't think you had at that point. You generally want to have an early Republic GA in a 20k game. Generally, it works better to irrigate a grassland cow and mine an irrigated wheat square.
7. It probably would do you good to do some deficit research with 227 in the bank.
8. I don't see why you want walls in Nagaski. A harbor, library, or military might serve you better there.
9. The 230 AD in Pacioli's game probably comes as one of the saves more comparable to your 410 AD. That said, without chopping any forests down, here's a 420 save which indicates more how you want your capital to look in a 20k game. I hope this helps.
AnthonyIII
Warlord
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OK, then I will practice on short-rushing in my next game. Yes, I've taken quite an interest in CIV3 in general, and after I've only played towards conquest and domination wins earlier it's very nice to to try a different approach to the game. The only strategy game I tried before civ3 was Age of Empires 2 and Caesar 3 - why I decided to try civ3 first, I don't know. But it's really enjoyable! I think I've improved my game quite fast and it's all thanks to this site, the articles and all the very good responses I've gotten here. I've played around 38 games of civ3(3 games on chieftain, 3 on warlord, 10 on regent, 10 on monarch, 10 on emperor and now 2 on DG - I plan to win 8 more on demi-god before moving up again or maybe this is were I stall)
So, on to your comments.
Downloaded Mapstat and tried that, neat little tool. I like that you can decide for yourself when to open it, I though CA2 were popping up all the time.(Maybe a way stop this?)
Hmm, yes I could have made a swordsman or two or three, but I figured it was not much point. Only peace in sight on my island and my numidian merenaries are alos better defenders than the swordsman. I guess if I was at war or fearing war soon I would absolutely traded more for iron and build more units. I tried to have worker join my capital after Shake's and yes, it was quite nice. Quickly grew the city and it was still growing. Regarding the Heroic Epic, that's a nice ratio indeed. Regarding the other city improvements - I thought that colloseums, temples and university were nowhere near the wonders when it comes down to culture per turn, but in fact they were! Nice. So it's best to build theese as soon as they're available? With the use of common sense of course, would wan't to miss a wonder as you say.
1:Are you here explaining what you meant when you wrote in earlier post "irrigate brown/mine green"? I am colorblind, all the tiles look green to me. So green is the normal grassland then?
3: Ohh, thanks for the tip. It's just that if I forget to check in on my capital for a turn or two, citizens seem to have changed what tiles they work. 4: Duly noted. 5:Hmm, that's not supposed to happen but I do admit I can get somewhat sloppy with the worker moves after 0AD. 6:You're correct, I did not mine it during my GA, will do that the next time. 7:That means go 0% research but using scientists to earn som gold? 8:Hmm. I think it was because since the city flipped to me from the Japanese, I figure they would want to get it back. They didn't. 9:I'll check out his save. And yes, that's more like it - the 420 save.. You've stared planting another forest and switched some citizens so it now has more production... Will work on that.
I did play another game tonight: Demi-god, archipalego, 80% water, wet, warm 5 billions with same opponents as the last game. I used this for training for myself and made the map in the editor - making sure I was alone on my island and had access to coal, salpeter and iron. I also added more cows around my starting position(kind of beefed it up a bit if you may) and now I won in 1730. Nice! The AI in this game were totally backwards and never threatened my win. I felt soory for them and had bad conscience even though this was just training. I focused on the thing you wrote yesterday and building Cope's before Shake's. Could you or anyone else check how far from real civ this game is? Got one SGL, used it for Universal Suffrage. I think I will now try a normal demi-god game, if I find an OK start. I think having agression level to lowest can help a lot of players beating demi-god, by the way.
Yes, I've taken quite an interest in CIV3 in general, and after I've only played towards conquest and domination wins earlier it's very nice to to try a different approach to the game. The only strategy game I tried before civ3 was Age of Empires 2 and Caesar 3 - why I decided to try civ3 first, I don't know. But it's really enjoyable! I think I've improved my game quite fast and it's all thanks to this site, the articles and all the very good responses I've gotten here. I've played around 38 games of civ3(3 games on chieftain, 3 on warlord, 10 on regent, 10 on monarch, 10 on emperor and now 2 on DG - I plan to win 8 more on demi-god before moving up again or maybe this is were I stall)So, on to your comments.
Downloaded Mapstat and tried that, neat little tool. I like that you can decide for yourself when to open it, I though CA2 were popping up all the time.(Maybe a way stop this?)
Hmm, yes I could have made a swordsman or two or three, but I figured it was not much point. Only peace in sight on my island and my numidian merenaries are alos better defenders than the swordsman. I guess if I was at war or fearing war soon I would absolutely traded more for iron and build more units. I tried to have worker join my capital after Shake's and yes, it was quite nice. Quickly grew the city and it was still growing. Regarding the Heroic Epic, that's a nice ratio indeed. Regarding the other city improvements - I thought that colloseums, temples and university were nowhere near the wonders when it comes down to culture per turn, but in fact they were! Nice. So it's best to build theese as soon as they're available? With the use of common sense of course, would wan't to miss a wonder as you say.
1:Are you here explaining what you meant when you wrote in earlier post "irrigate brown/mine green"? I am colorblind, all the tiles look green to me. So green is the normal grassland then?
3: Ohh, thanks for the tip. It's just that if I forget to check in on my capital for a turn or two, citizens seem to have changed what tiles they work. 4: Duly noted. 5:Hmm, that's not supposed to happen but I do admit I can get somewhat sloppy with the worker moves after 0AD. 6:You're correct, I did not mine it during my GA, will do that the next time. 7:That means go 0% research but using scientists to earn som gold? 8:Hmm. I think it was because since the city flipped to me from the Japanese, I figure they would want to get it back. They didn't. 9:I'll check out his save. And yes, that's more like it - the 420 save.. You've stared planting another forest and switched some citizens so it now has more production... Will work on that.
I did play another game tonight: Demi-god, archipalego, 80% water, wet, warm 5 billions with same opponents as the last game. I used this for training for myself and made the map in the editor - making sure I was alone on my island and had access to coal, salpeter and iron. I also added more cows around my starting position(kind of beefed it up a bit if you may) and now I won in 1730. Nice! The AI in this game were totally backwards and never threatened my win. I felt soory for them and had bad conscience even though this was just training. I focused on the thing you wrote yesterday and building Cope's before Shake's. Could you or anyone else check how far from real civ this game is?
Got one SGL, used it for Universal Suffrage. I think I will now try a normal demi-god game, if I find an OK start. I think having agression level to lowest can help a lot of players beating demi-god, by the way.1. No I wasn't explaining about irrigate brown/mine green. I only talked about green squares there. Grassland is green, plains are brown.
7. Deficit research means pushing the science slider up to a rate where you have negative gpt (but, of course, you still have gold in the bank to cover your losses).
I'm not sure what you're asking about your save. I will say though that the capital has access to only 11 land squares.
7. Deficit research means pushing the science slider up to a rate where you have negative gpt (but, of course, you still have gold in the bank to cover your losses).
I'm not sure what you're asking about your save. I will say though that the capital has access to only 11 land squares.
AnthonyIII
Warlord
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Aha, alright. Thanks for making sure. I was asking if this game was very far from a randomly generated map, starting positions for other civs etc. I have a feeling they had a really hard time as it was almost as they were not there at all. But it's not that important. Gonna have a crack at emperor 20k standard later. Will be fun. Or another demi-god game. Hmm. I've read up a bit on the "Emsworth agreement" and the banking strategy. Is this good to master in levels beyond emperor? Is it necessary or can you win, say C3C Deity without it? And was the "999-trick" fixed for Civ3 Complete?
AnthonyIII
Warlord
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OK. Quick question:How do I make the AI's make g/pt deals with me? In my recent game everyone was polite towards me, I had not been at war with any of them but noe one still wanted to give 1 g/pt for 1200g and 4 techs. And the Mongols could give 144 g/pt at max but had 0g in the bank. How is that possible? Found at that the "999-trick" worked with complete, I had just gotten something wrong.
del62
Deity
if they are not making gpt they wont give any
darski
Regent in Training
I'm just wondering if you have ever tried an alternate graphics pack for your terrain?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47260#post839345
I can't really tell if you could see a difference but just looking at the library page should tell you if one of them is more obvious to your visual needs.
terrain is one of the easiest things to change in the game.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47260#post839345
I can't really tell if you could see a difference but just looking at the library page should tell you if one of them is more obvious to your visual needs.
terrain is one of the easiest things to change in the game.
AnthonyIII
Warlord
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Makes sense del62 but when I used the "999-trick" to check, they were making like 400 g/pt.
Darski, I used different terrain packs before - when I used to play civ from my CD-rom. Now my CD-rom doesn't work and I bought C3C via Steam and I haven't found out what maps to put the new terrain files in... The CIV3 maps looks different than when I installed and played via CD-rom.
Darski, I used different terrain packs before - when I used to play civ from my CD-rom. Now my CD-rom doesn't work and I bought C3C via Steam and I haven't found out what maps to put the new terrain files in... The CIV3 maps looks different than when I installed and played via CD-rom.
del62
Deity
I dont know enough about the 999 trick, but this may be the amount if they are running 100% tax, not taking the slider into account.
The 999 trick gives the total before corruption. It is like the number that comes after Income on your F1 screen, not the number that comes after Net Gain. It varies based on the slider settings, because of the effects of multiplier buildings, but it is unrelated to how much spare money the AI has. They could have an income of 400 gpt, and still be in the hole.
AnthonyIII
Warlord
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Thanks, good to know! 
EDIT: Guys, I'm just wondering. How essential is a river to the 20k start? I've had starts with coatal location, 2 cows and one ivory but disbanded it because of the lack of a river. Nearly all saves I've downloaded from the HOF has a start with a river nearby. Is the extra commerce that important? Also, I've been struggling a bit with the Republic slingshot and findt that everyone gets there faster than me. I think I know why, because I've been used to selecting Literature as my free tech after Philosophy to make sure I get to build the GL. Should I instead go CoL, then research The Republic and then go Literature?
EDIT: Guys, I'm just wondering. How essential is a river to the 20k start? I've had starts with coatal location, 2 cows and one ivory but disbanded it because of the lack of a river. Nearly all saves I've downloaded from the HOF has a start with a river nearby. Is the extra commerce that important? Also, I've been struggling a bit with the Republic slingshot and findt that everyone gets there faster than me. I think I know why, because I've been used to selecting Literature as my free tech after Philosophy to make sure I get to build the GL. Should I instead go CoL, then research The Republic and then go Literature?
The extra commerce is nice, but the big deal is the need for the aquaduct if you don't have fresh water. If you need an aquaduct, you are stuck at size 6 until construction, which isn't generally a tech you want to beeline for.
You want to research (or trade for) CoL, then philosophy, then pick republic as your free tech. You can't usually detour for literature along the way and make it to philosophy first. If you get to philosophy first and get republic for free, then start on literature. If you lose the philosophy race, learn literature before the republic.
For the slingshot, you have to research alphabet - writing - code of laws - philosophy - republic for free. The problem with this is that these techs aren't useful for 20K. Your starting techs may give you something to build, but otherwise you'll need to trade - ceremonial burial, masonry, mysticism, bronze working. Depending on your rivals, you might be able to research ceremonial burial before starting on the slingshot - if you have alphabet and your rivals don't, and you are at or below emperor, and your chances of trading for ceremonial burial look poor, consider researching it.
You want to research (or trade for) CoL, then philosophy, then pick republic as your free tech. You can't usually detour for literature along the way and make it to philosophy first. If you get to philosophy first and get republic for free, then start on literature. If you lose the philosophy race, learn literature before the republic.
For the slingshot, you have to research alphabet - writing - code of laws - philosophy - republic for free. The problem with this is that these techs aren't useful for 20K. Your starting techs may give you something to build, but otherwise you'll need to trade - ceremonial burial, masonry, mysticism, bronze working. Depending on your rivals, you might be able to research ceremonial burial before starting on the slingshot - if you have alphabet and your rivals don't, and you are at or below emperor, and your chances of trading for ceremonial burial look poor, consider researching it.
del62
Deity
Thanks, good to know!
EDIT: Guys, I'm just wondering. How essential is a river to the 20k start?
As CKS says for a 20K game you need a start that does not need an aquaduct, this is either a river or a lake, you need to be able to grow past size 6 asap, the extra commence from a river is nice too.
The trick on going the Republic slingshot in the 20k lies in knowing when to trade away Alphabet/Writing for Masonry/Ceremonial Burial/Mysticism. When an AI goes from a state where they will trade say 3 techs for Alphabet to a state where they'll only give you 2 techs for Alphabet, then you've found the time to trade.
del62
Deity
The other thing to bear in mind when trading is the number of contacts you have and they have, if you know 3 AL with a tech you will get a better price than if you only know two or one.
AnthonyIII
Warlord
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CKS:That makes sense. I certainly don't want to spend my time building an aqueduct. Thanks all of you for explaining the slingshot. I've up to now played as an alphabet civ against non-alphabet civs and managed the slingshot every time. It's just that it takes sometime anyway, because theese civs never research for exampel CoL by themself. Would you say the extra commerce is so strong that it's a must, del62? Spoonwood, that's a good rule. And yes, I've noticed I get a better price if I know a lot of the others. So... I decided to do something unlike my civ-me:whenever I step up a level I play 8-10 games at that level before moving again. But yesterday I started a C3C Deity 20k game, and it looks like I'm clocking in at around 1890. Do you guys have a tool to check the 4000BC-status? I thik I've seen it mentioned... Just to check that everything is as it should. Also, I think I've overwritten my 4000BC save, by another one because I started on several different maps at the same time. Classic. I wanted to submit to the HOF for fun, but it's impossible without the 4000BC save, no? I think the earliest I have is 2000BC.
