WTP team member
- Feb 13, 2020
- Russia, Vladimir
therefore I propose that we postpone discussion of any new features to the upcoming of the release.
IMO research points don't really fit this game though, and tech progression should occur independently of the player, since the driver of tech at the time was mostly in Europe, a player's colonies' motherland. This should also be advantageous for the AI, and for smaller colonies that would otherwise be unable of outputting as much research.
X turns pass (modified by game speed): "news from europe" or something, shipmakers back at home have now started producing galleons! [insert historical flavour here]
- We need that! (pay gold or something, unlock unit)
- Who cares? (after X turns unit unlocks for free)
or if multiple techs "arrive" at the same time, the player could choose which one the colony should focus on and thus acquire first, and then the other techs unlocking after X turns
I don't really see the need for the player to have to do anything to progress though. In the game's timeframe most new advancements are made on the other side of the ocean and just spread over the colonies over time.
It's immersive and makes the game interesting, not everything needs to be based on making the player do stuff. In fact too much stuff can end up with too much micro...
Though I suppose there could be a few techs based on investment done in the colonies. Locally developed-ish ships would be a gunboat/"gundallow" and a "row-galley" in the case of the 13colonies. The colonial navy's frigates seem to have been better than average in firepower, partly because they had and built almost no ships of the line. Colonial warfare also differed a fair amount from that of Europe, nor against natives nor in the revolutionary war. There's also the larger use of slaves than in Europe.
On the topic of ships, the REF really needs to be reworked. As is it has more first rates than any world power ever built IRL, and makes naval war vs the REF completely braindead and uninteresting.
I really want to unlock contents like units through the game, but I still think we are missing one really important part of the puzzle: how should unlocking work in terms of gameplay? I mean what should the player do to progress?
There is a proposal about a building where units can produce research. There is a proposal about timed events. I don't feel like that will really fit the theme of the mod. I mean sure we could add YIELD_RESEARCH, which can then be used in a tech tree. Medieval Conquest has that. However can't we find something, which feels more like what would happen in the colonies?
I already mentioned the Kentucky Long Rifle as an invention of the New World, not from Europe. (...)
And it should be at least somewhat like that
The idea that technology should arrive at random and then you buy it sounds like Imperialism.
Research in Imperialism 2
Sounds good to me. If we add a tech category xml file, then we should be able to make all of them use the same code, but with different xml settings, like yields have a tech category tag. This way we can code support for one and once it's working, adding more types will likely not be a huge task from a programming point of view. In fact if Inventions works, then Social Advances sounds like an xml only addition.Theoretically we could have several "Tech Categories":
Yeah it's not something we except within a few months. However if we are ever going to get something like this, then we need to start the process at some point. One important aspect is to have a roadmap where it can be added in steps. It's no good if it takes 5 years before we have the first playable version.This is a "monster feature" that will require a lot of concepting, implementing, testing, balancing, graphics (2D Buttons), texts, ...
I'm actually talking about Imperialism 1 and Imperialism 2. Maybe it wasn't clear for people who aren't familiar with games released during the late 90s. Having played those for many hours I have an impression about how the tech system works in those and it contributes to deciding what I want and don't want in WTP.Oh, I thought you were trying to offend me with the imperialism lmao my bad
I think making it a yield is a good idea regardless of how we end up designing it. It gives xml modding freedom and much easier expandability in the future. I prefer to code in a way, which will not be restrictive in case people come up with new ideas later. Next question is then how to produce said yields. It may or may not be professions.As I've expressed before I really don't think a research yield fits in this game, though it's ultimately you dev's decision.
Right now UI is "free" in the sense that we just consider what can be done and what we want. Right now I can't imagine any UI, which will change the workload for implementing this dramatically.idk how much work UI is so maybe it's not that bad anyway.
Don't mix up the later large Heavy Frigates with the ones constructed during the WOI. The earlier frigates were mostly armed with 12-pounders, but often with a wild mix of guns which reduced their combat value even more. The later frigates were more comparable (in size and displacement) to razeed 74-gun ships.The colonial navy's frigates seem to have been better than average in firepower, partly because they had and built almost no ships of the line.
ATM the REF represents the units available to the player, i.e. modern ships from the get-go. The "tech" tree should be the remedy. Yep, the naval side of the game is not as well developed as the rest of the game. (Europa Universalis suffers the same fate)On the topic of ships, the REF really needs to be reworked. As is it has more first rates than any world power ever built IRL, and makes naval war vs the REF completely braindead and uninteresting.
The ship types I'd like to see in the mod eventually would be (in decreasing size): flagship - battleship - cruiser - coast guard (large merchantman - medium merchantman - colonial "coastal" merchantman).
This roster would be entirely filled during the whole game length, with new designs occasionally popping up and replacing an outdated one. During the WOI this would like like : 100-gun three-decker - 74-gun two-decker - 18-pounder frigate - cutter ("merchantman" - brig - brigantine), while a bunch of ships of the respective earlier design might still be floating. (Have I said that ships should only have life span of ~20 years?) Such a structure I'd also like to see with regard to the Royal Navy, i.e. the player should be able to win a few picked battles. Supporting European powers should throw in their navies as sort of a fleet-in-being which prevents that our king can send his main battle fleet across the Atlantic to stop our tiny rebellion. They should also occasionally spare a few battleships (read: a mixed squadron) which could show up at our coast frustrating the ongoing land war of our king.
The vanilla ship are not that good. (There have been a few re-scins which should be inspected closer.) The vanilla man-o-war would fit as a 17th century 80+-gun three-decker and the vanilla ship-of-the-line as a 18th century 50-gun two-decker although it could also be used as a two-decker frigate. Yep, not that good to represent the most modern ships of the game. Maybe similar ships can be borrowed from CIV5, CIV6 or EU4?In the meanwhile the vanilla ship of the line model classifies it as a fourth rate, while the "man o war" doesn't really qualify as anything because it has the guns of a medium third rate while having 3 decks like a first or second, which would have roughly twice as many guns. ^_^.
(mostly already answered above) More realism re the naval side of the game would be nice. IMHO it's an open question if promotions are a good measure to represent crew training, combat experience, naval tradition and building preferences. A good starting point would be revising cargo transport by giving ships cargo capacity and keeping the slots only for transporting colonists. Land transports would hugely benefit, too.My problem with the REF fleet is it is literally made up of 1 ship, representing either a first or second rate. Even in the linked battle there were no more than 3 such ships in both sides total. Would be far more immersive for it to be made up of a realistically proportioned assortment of ships, and the player would then be able to opportunistically fight the weaker half of the REF navy, making it a far more interesting, complex, strategic and tactical naval war than vanilla.
Yep, would be nice if the support would be more substantial. The ships mustn't be a gift but be merely player-controlled...?What would be really cool as well would be if upon starting the independence war, for friendly Europeans to provide a few high-tier ships, to simulate somewhat the example of French intervention.
These are just made-up placeholders for a specific role that should be covered by these ships.You are mentioning shiptypes that were not in use until far later.
To spice up the naval side of WTP it seems very attractive for me to introduce a progression of naval shipbuilding which is driven by inventions, sailing experiences (think about the influence of readily available trade winds on English, Spanish or Portuguese galleon design) and war experiences. The already mentioned CivEffects might do wonders to differentiate otherwise similar units and thereby increasing the replay value.The shiptypes in Colonization are not specific ships. A "Galleon" ingame is just an abstraction of variations of Galleons used by different nations that differed even more over time as that shiptype was used over 150 years. An early spanish Galleon would be very different from a late english one - but for simplification and because "Galleon" is the bestknown shiptype when it comes to the Silver Train and the Treasure Fleet of the Spanish it is used as THE treasure transport of the game.
Keeping in mind how hunting was done in that time that seems to be no good comparision, nontheless an Expert Hunter can easily drop his profession and go back to school for re-training. Having OTOH 300 year old caravels fighting/evading the REF in the late 18th century is even less realistic. WTP has a highly sophisticated economy but all other (historical) aspects but be ignored? (no, I don't really want to mention these thinly disguised railroads)Setting a lifespan on ships would run counter to everything else in the game. Have a ship rot after 20 years - when an Expert Hunter can hunt for 300 years?
Housing-over was invented only later. Yes, some well maintained ships survived for long times but these ships were occasionally rebuild by replacing rotten timbers. You needed a highly developed naval infrastructure to achieve this. ATM I'm not sure if even one dry dock existed in the Americas during the WOI.In addition, for a well maintained ship that visits drydock every few years and is wellbuilt lifespans of far beyond 20 years were possible.
Don't mix up the later large Heavy Frigates with the ones constructed during the WOI
You need to be experienced in building large (war)ships to construct reliable ships. The 13 Colonies didn't have a comparable naval construction history
Housing-over was invented only later. Yes, some well maintained ships survived for long times but these ships were occasionally rebuild by replacing rotten timbers. You needed a highly developed naval infrastructure to achieve this. ATM I'm not sure if even one dry dock existed in the Americas during the WOI.