Tech tree ideas

[Col Mustard]

I've alway thought that tech trees in civ games needed more options. Every time I play, I run through the tech tree just to get to the next tech. The current tech tree doesn't give you a chance to customize your civilization to the terrain, your resources, or other nearby civs (and now city-states). These ideas are really for modders since the game is about to come out in less than a month. So here goes:

1. Create mini techs that are based off the main techs already in the game. Mini techs can be earned during the researching of the main tech or as a post mini after the main tech is completed. Mini tech refers to a tech received while researching a main tech. Post mini tech are optional and can be researched after the main tech is completed. Post mini can require other techs, mini techs, or post mini techs. Post mini techs may also give a bonus to researching a tech in the future or be required by a future post mini tech from another main tech. Here is agriculture as an example.

Agriculture: Farm improvement
Mini tech – reveals wheat on map
Mini tech - can build farm improvement (no bonus)
Full tech - can build farm improvement (with +1 food bonus)

Post mini – Irrigated farm land 1 (+1 food for irrigated tiles directly next to rivers)
Post mini - Irrigated farm land 2 (+2 food for irrigated tiles directly next to rivers, bonus research to engineering) requires irrigated farm land 1
Post mini – Crop Rotation (+1 food) requires calendar tech
Post mini - Steppe farming (can build farms on hills/mountains maybe?, cannot be irrigated) requires masonry?

When this is done properly for other techs, i think it'll adds depth and realism to the game without sacrificing gameplay. You would have a limit to the number of post mini techs but also you wouldn't want to get every post mini tech. For example, if you are playing egypt on an earth map, you will have a limited number of farming tiles available in the beginning. The post mini tech irrigate farm land can help start off your civ. At the same time, other civs with plenty of farm land wouldn't go after that post tech. Steppe farming would be researched if you have a city or a couple cities surrounded by hills and mountains. All these mini techs would allow for a more varied gameplay and imo a better experience without adding extensive micromanagement.

2. Allow percentages of research to go to different techs, but splitting up the tech increases the research time of each individual tech being researched. For example, you can research eletronics at the same time as radio assuming you could research them individually. This let you research two tech if you want both at the same time. This ability should available after researching writing and works more with the mini techs than other main techs. For example, you get writing and then split the research between the steppe farming mini tech and Philosophy.

Obviously, the concepts would need some balancing and the AI should know how to use them properly as well, so what do you think? good? bad?

 

[GigaNerd]

It's an amazing idea, but it'll take more than 12 people to create the mod!

When I have some spare time, I'll come up with more ideas for this.

 

[Twahn]

Sounds like fun Mustard.

1. Create mini techs that are based off the main techs already in the game.

Your first concept would actually be really easy to mod (or, at least it would in Civ 4 and I imagine it will also be in Civ 5).

All you're really proposing is more techs (your minitechs could easily be represented by simply adding prior to existing techs (so you would research "Agriculture minitech: Wheat Discovery", followed by "Agriculture minitech: Farms" and finally "Agriculture" itself).

Your post minis are then just dead end techs that have the prerequisite "Agriculture".

Your biggest struggle will be getting your tech tree to not look like a confused jumble! Even if you can get it to look decent, it will be massive.

I'm going to be getting into the modding pretty quickly I think with Civ 5 and will be more than happy to help you make your dream a reality. Don't know how comfortable you are with the idea of modding yourself, but if you're not and you can get your tech tree ideas together I might even be willing to put it together for you.

2. Allow percentages of research to go to different techs, but splitting up the tech increases the research time of each individual tech being researched.

Might need to rethink this idea mate. It doesn't work if you simply split the tech down the middle and allow someone to research multiple techs concurrently. If I can have one tech in 20 turns, or two techs in 40 turns each I'm going to go for the first option every time (because it gives me one tech in 20 turns and then another in another 20 turns instead of having to wait 40 turns for both).
If it works that you are penalised for splitting your research as I think you are suggesting, then it only makes it even less attractive.

To get this idea to work, you'd have to put in something like a maximum amount of beakers that could be allocated to researching any one tech at a time. If your empire was generating more beakers it would then have to split its research or else have these beakers wasted.
This is a much more serious mod, as it isn't just changing the content of the tech tree but is changing a game concept and would require some recoding of this concept if it were possible at all.

I like the idea of having to split your research if you have a lot of science output rather than being able to pump masses into a single idea though. Could be interesting.

 

[Calouste]

At the moment Civ has about 70 techs, which means that if in a standard game you research all techs in exactly the maximum number of turns, you will research one tech every 7 turns. With your proposed 7 or so mini techs, you will research a mini tech every single turn. That seems like way overkill to me.

 

[Trias]

At the moment Civ has about 70 techs, which means that if in a standard game you research all techs in exactly the maximum number of turns, you will research one tech every 7 turns. With your proposed 7 or so mini techs, you will research a mini tech every single turn. That seems like way overkill to me.

1) This idea is probably more aimed at marathon type games.

2) I think part of the idea is that the post mini techs are optional deadend techs, that you would not research every game.

 

[Tarkhan]

They'd be interesting. Sort of an optional bonus based on the land you've got.

 

[Niniux]

I could see military techs having paths that allow slight bonuses over the plain units. Almost like a mini-UU. One could make your Archers cheaper, another could give them a promotion that allowed a small, maybe 5 or 10% bonus when attacking from hills, etc.

I'd also recommend against naming them mini-techs, because that sounds, at least to me, a little lackluster.

Were I designing it, I'd either do Agriculture I: Farms, Agriculture II: Irrigation or call them Breakthroughs or something.

I'll add more when I'm not so tired and about to go to bed, haha.

 

[Col Mustard]

Thanks everyone for the comments, I think I'll start working on some more mini tech and post them here. i'll respond to people in the spoilers so this post isnt too long.

Spoiler :

Sounds like fun Mustard.

1. Your first concept would actually be really easy to mod (or, at least it would in Civ 4 and I imagine it will also be in Civ 5).

All you're really proposing is more techs (your minitechs could easily be represented by simply adding prior to existing techs (so you would research "Agriculture minitech: Wheat Discovery", followed by "Agriculture minitech: Farms" and finally "Agriculture" itself).

Your post minis are then just dead end techs that have the prerequisite "Agriculture".

Your biggest struggle will be getting your tech tree to not look like a confused jumble! Even if you can get it to look decent, it will be massive.

I'm going to be getting into the modding pretty quickly I think with Civ 5 and will be more than happy to help you make your dream a reality. Don't know how comfortable you are with the idea of modding yourself, but if you're not and you can get your tech tree ideas together I might even be willing to put it together for you.

2. Might need to rethink this idea mate. It doesn't work if you simply split the tech down the middle and allow someone to research multiple techs concurrently. If I can have one tech in 20 turns, or two techs in 40 turns each I'm going to go for the first option every time (because it gives me one tech in 20 turns and then another in another 20 turns instead of having to wait 40 turns for both).
If it works that you are penalised for splitting your research as I think you are suggesting, then it only makes it even less attractive.

To get this idea to work, you'd have to put in something like a maximum amount of beakers that could be allocated to researching any one tech at a time. If your empire was generating more beakers it would then have to split its research or else have these beakers wasted.
This is a much more serious mod, as it isn't just changing the content of the tech tree but is changing a game concept and would require some recoding of this concept if it were possible at all.

I like the idea of having to split your research if you have a lot of science output rather than being able to pump masses into a single idea though. Could be interesting.

I've never mod anything before but have always wanted to try. I never had a good idea for a mod before this and it's good to hear that it shouldn't be too hard to do since i'll be a noob modder. Of course any help would be awesome. To keep the mess down in the tech tree, I was thinking that the mini techs would be in a drop down menu that you see when you click the main tech. Another way to do it could be in a pop up menu that appears when you click the main tech.

I see what your saying about my second idea and I like your idea for splitting the research points once a max amount of beakers is reached much better. The real question then is how to determine the point when beakers start being wasted. I'll have to think on it but what I was trying to do with the split research is allow people to research the mini techs but not take away to much from researching a main tech. Of course there needs to be some penalty for going after a mini tech but not a massive one.

Spoiler :

At the moment Civ has about 70 techs, which means that if in a standard game you research all techs in exactly the maximum number of turns, you will research one tech every 7 turns. With your proposed 7 or so mini techs, you will research a mini tech every single turn. That seems like way overkill to me.

You're right that it would overkill if you tried to research every post tech on a standard map, but this mod will probably be geared towards longer games like on marathon as someone else said. However, it may still work on standard if balanced properly. Secondly, the mini tech(s) that come while researching the full tech dont add research time to the full tech so only post mini tech will add to research time. They just give you part of the tech before you finish researching the full tech. From my example, the pre-mini techs to see wheat and build farms are things lead up to the actual growing and consumption of the wheat that the full tech represents. It's not like ancient people just saw wheat, built farms and started eating wheat in one turn (50 years or whatever it is at that point in the game). It was a long gradually process that is sometimes is forgotten about but is important. The post techs are optional and not necessary for every game, so they are overkill only if you think you have to have every one of them which is not what you are suppose to do with them.

Spoiler :

I could see military techs having paths that allow slight bonuses over the plain units. Almost like a mini-UU. One could make your Archers cheaper, another could give them a promotion that allowed a small, maybe 5 or 10% bonus when attacking from hills, etc.

I'd also recommend against naming them mini-techs, because that sounds, at least to me, a little lackluster.

Were I designing it, I'd either do Agriculture I: Farms, Agriculture II: Irrigation or call them Breakthroughs or something.

I'll add more when I'm not so tired and about to go to bed, haha.

That was what I had in mind for the mini military techs as well. The military techs minis will be tough to manage because people will probably try to research all of them as a just in case measure and then fall behind in the main techs. I think that wont be a bad thing because then you would have to be strategic in what mini techs you go after. Also, I agree that mini techs isn't the best name, maybe I'll think of something better later but for now it describes the concept well enough.

I thought of doing some passive post mini techs, so that you will get a bonus after having a full tech researched for some turns without doing more research. I want to mimic how a technology can change in the field without another big research effort. I dont know if it'll fit well in the game but I thought I'd throw it out there. Another idea is to have completing/neutralizing mini techs. For example, one bronze working mini tech could improve the bronze weapons (+1 strength) of your units and another bronze working mini tech could improve the bronze shields (+1 defense) of your units. You wouldn't go for both unless you are seriously ancient warmongering or about to be killed because it will take alot of beakers to research both. As alway its all in the balancing but let me know if you like the idea. Also, if anyone can think of some good mini techs or any other ideas that work with this stuff, post it up.

 

[Seek]

A few ideas, some of which were touched on above:

*I think it may be simpler to have an upgrade system for techs ala Diablo's skill tree system, like what Niniux said. Make each tech have two to five upgrades that you can invest in. Similar to the "post minis" you describe above, but create levels for techs rather than separate offshoots.

*Force delay on some higher level upgrades until you have had the tech for a certain number of turns or discover a prerequisite tech.

*I like the idea of splitting beakers, too. But I agree you would have to set a limit of 2/3 or so to be invested into any given tech in a turn. (Maybe have a forced split? 1/3 allotted for upgrades per turn, 2/3 for new techs.) This way you can still keep advancing, but be able to "specialize" in certain techs with another portion of beakers. It's also more realistic; it has always bugged me about Civ games that you could only research one tech at a time.

*Have UUs and UBs only become available at the highest level of their associated tech. It's more RL, because it is a civilization's specialization of a certain thing that led to their UUs/UBs in the first place! (Note, probably no forced delay period on these techs.)

*Include cultural bonuses at higher levels of (culturally unrelated) tech, because often what makes a RL civilization's culture is, again, through their specialization. (For an example, think of tea, which is common to many civilizations all over the world, but for the English and the Japanese it is a strong part of their culture.)

*Upgrades would be slightly cheaper than the original techs, but not so cheap that you could get all of them, as Col Mustard mentioned above. Or better yet, only allow one or two upgrade paths per era, depending on the number of techs of the era! (i.e. ancient would have two, classical one, etc.) So you could decide that if you think you will be going to war early you would get upgrades in archery, but if playing for culture you would invest in writing.

I think this is a really great idea, I have been thinking about this stuff since it came out that the Social Policy trees were going to be "WoW-like". It seemed obvious to me that the next step would be to apply this to the main tech tree. I'm so happy to find someone likeminded!
Hope some of these ideas are useful to you.

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

Pretty cool idea.

It bothers me too, especially with the reduced tech tree for CiV, that in a marathon game you might spend 40 turns(rectally derived number) researching a tech, during which you apparently learn nothing, then "BING!", 'uh sir, we've just discovered rifling and can now field units overnight 50% more powerful than what we could yesterday". This seems like a good direction to go in for a mod to help that.

The added idea that you could go in optional directions based on the geography or other circumstances to differentiate your civilization from others is very interesting, such as how the Incans were very good at farming in mountainous terrain that other civs wouldn't have even fathomed.

However, the AI is not going to be well trained in the art of ignoring techs, mini or not, or in deciding which mini techs suite it's circumstances. That's the real challenge here.

Chris

 

[Thormodr]

Nice ideas.

It kind of reminds me a little of the Victoria series from Paradox Interactive. When you discover a technology, you can also have a random chance each month of an invention firing. (Not all technologies have inventions attached but quite a few do.) Maybe a 2-10%. So if you discover medicine you'd then have a list of various inventions like a cure for Malaria (allows you to colonize easier) that could randomly be discovered.

With your system the random element would be taken out and it would be more in the hands of the player in which direction they want to go. Sounds good too.

 

[Col Mustard]

Again, reply in quotes.

Spoiler :

A few ideas, some of which were touched on above:

*I think it may be simpler to have an upgrade system for techs ala Diablo's skill tree system, like what Niniux said. Make each tech have two to five upgrades that you can invest in. Similar to the "post minis" you describe above, but create levels for techs rather than separate offshoots.

*Force delay on some higher level upgrades until you have had the tech for a certain number of turns or discover a prerequisite tech.

*I like the idea of splitting beakers, too. But I agree you would have to set a limit of 2/3 or so to be invested into any given tech in a turn. (Maybe have a forced split? 1/3 allotted for upgrades per turn, 2/3 for new techs.) This way you can still keep advancing, but be able to "specialize" in certain techs with another portion of beakers. It's also more realistic; it has always bugged me about Civ games that you could only research one tech at a time.

*Have UUs and UBs only become available at the highest level of their associated tech. It's more RL, because it is a civilization's specialization of a certain thing that led to their UUs/UBs in the first place! (Note, probably no forced delay period on these techs.)

*Include cultural bonuses at higher levels of (culturally unrelated) tech, because often what makes a RL civilization's culture is, again, through their specialization. (For an example, think of tea, which is common to many civilizations all over the world, but for the English and the Japanese it is a strong part of their culture.)

*Upgrades would be slightly cheaper than the original techs, but not so cheap that you could get all of them, as Col Mustard mentioned above. Or better yet, only allow one or two upgrade paths per era, depending on the number of techs of the era! (i.e. ancient would have two, classical one, etc.) So you could decide that if you think you will be going to war early you would get upgrades in archery, but if playing for culture you would invest in writing.

I think this is a really great idea, I have been thinking about this stuff since it came out that the Social Policy trees were going to be "WoW-like". It seemed obvious to me that the next step would be to apply this to the main tech tree. I'm so happy to find someone likeminded!
Hope some of these ideas are useful to you.

I like several of your ideas especially the UUs and UBs one. I've always thought that the UUs and UBs should be promotions or something but they'll work better as post mini techs. To go along with that the special abilities that each civ gets at the start of a game could be earned or at the very least new special abilities could be researched as a post mini tech.

Alright I had a free afternoon so I ran through the ancient era techs and came up with some mini techs. Let me know whats good and whats bad or if you have one to add. Also, keep in mind that these will all have to be balanced so the numbers are really just made up at this point. The descriptions for the main techs are from Arioch's Analyst Site so they may be different once the game is out. Also, if you want to see the currently known tech tree to know how the tech go together tech tree.

Agriculture: Farm improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – reveals wheat on map
Mini tech - can build farm improvement (no bonus)
Full tech - can build farm improvement (with +1 food bonus)
Post mini – irrigated farm land 1 (+1 food for tiles directly next to rivers)
Post mini - irrigated farm land 2 (+2 food for tiles directly next to rivers, bonus research to engineering) requires irrigated farm land 1
Post mini – crop rotation (+1 food) requires calendar tech
Post mini - steppe farming (can build farms on hills) requires masonry?

Pottery: Granary building

Spoiler :

Mini tech – can build granary (+1 food)
Full tech – can build granary (+2 food)
Post mini – Advance Pottery (+1 culture from granary building)
Post mini – Complex Grain Storage ( +1 food from granary building)

Animal Husbandry: Reveal Horses resource, Pasture improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – reveals horses, cows, sheep resources
Mini tech – can build pasture improvement - +1hammer
Full tech - can build pasture improvement - + 2hammer, +1 gold
Post mini – Advanced cattle husbandry (+2 food, +1 gold on cattle tile with pastures)
Post mini - Advanced sheep husbandry (+1 food, +2 gold on sheep tile with pastures)
Post mini – Advanced Horse husbandry (+1 food to farm tiles and +1 hammer to pasture tiles, +1 hammer to mine tiles)
Post mini – Early Civilian Horseback Riding (+1 movement to workers and settlers) requires Advanced horse husbandry
Post mini – Livestock guard dogs (+1 food from cattle and sheep)

Archery: Archer unit

Spoiler :

Full tech – Archer unit
Post tech – Archer volley (+10% damage to full strength units)
Post mini – flaming arrow (+25% damage to cities)
Post mini – woodsman (invisible in woods to units not in adjacent tiles)
Post mini – Melee vs. Ranged tactics (after 15 melee victories over ranged units -10% damage from ancient ranged units not in the adjacent tiles)
Post mini – Ranged vs. Melee tactics (after 15 melee victories over melee units +10% damage to ancient melee units in the adjacent tiles)

Mining: Mine improvement, Clear Forest improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – can clear forest
Mini tech – can build mine improvement ( no bonus)
Full tech – can build mine improvement (with bonus)
Post mini – mine carts (+1 hammer, +1 gold)

Sailing: Work Boat, Trireme, Great Lighthouse wonder, Fishing Boats improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – can build work boats
Mini tech – can build fishing boats improvements (no bonus)
Full tech - Work Boat, Trireme, Great Lighthouse wonder, Fishing Boats improvement
Post mini – Getting your Sea legs (1/2 time for work boats to create fishing boats improvement)
Post mini – Expert Fishermen (+1 food from fishing boats)
Post mini – Local Nautical Charts (+1 movement for boats within your culture borders)

Calendar: Stonehenge wonder, Plantation improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – reveals bananas, cotton, dye, Incense, silk, spices, sugar, wine on map
Mini tech – can build plantation improvements ( no bonus)
Full tech - Stonehenge wonder, Plantation improvement (with bonus)
Post mini – Vineyards (+1 happiness, +1 culture from wine plantations)
Post mini - Pickin’ Time (+1 gold from cotton plantations)
Post mini – Silk worm breeding (+1 gold from silk plantations)
Post mini – Fire Harvesting (+1 gold from sugar plantations)
Post mini – Incense Lore (+2 culture, +1 gold from incense Plantations)
Post mini – Banana cultivation (+1 food, from banana Plantations)
Post mini – Advanced Dye production (+1 happiness, +2 culture from dye plantations)
Post mini – Spice Diversification (+1 gold, +1happiness from spice plantation)

Writing: Library building, National College wonder, Great Library wonder, Ability: (??)

Spoiler :

Mini tech – can build Library (no bonus)
Full tech - Library building, National College wonder, Great Library wonder, Ability: (??)
Post mini – Library Scholars (+1 culture from library buildings, +2 culture from the Great Library wonders)
Post mini - Summa cum laude (+1 science from library buildings, +2 science from the National College wonder)

Trapping: Trading Post improvement, Camp improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech - can build camp improvement (no bonus)
Mini tech – can build trading post improvement (+1 gold)
Full tech - Trading Post improvement, Camp improvement (with full bonus)
Post mini – Hunting dogs (+1 Food for Deer, +1 Gold for Fur and Ivory)
Post mini – Specialized Trading Post (+1 gold from trading post if luxury adjacent to tile)
Post mini – Grand Trading Post (+1 gold, +1 culture, +1 happiness from trading posts with more than one luxury adjacent to tile)
Post mini – Trapping for Scouts (+2 strength for scouts, +1 movement)

The Wheel: Chariot Archer unit (replaced here by War Chariot), Watermill building, Road improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – can build road improvements
Mini tech – can build watermill buildings
Full tech - Chariot Archer unit (replaced here by War Chariot), Watermill building, Road improvement
Post mini – Advanced wooden wheels (+1 movement on roads)
Post mini - Watermill Mechanic ( +1 hammer from watermill building)

Masonry: Wall building, Pyramids wonder, Quarry improvement, (Drain Marsh?) improvement (machete icon)

Spoiler :

Mini tech – can build quarry improvement
Mini tech – drain marshes
Mini tech – can build wall building
Full tech – all the above + pyramids wonder
Post mini – City streets improvement (+1 hammer from city tiles)
Post mini – Double walls (allows a city to build a second wall for more defensive points)
Post mini – Capital monument (+1 Culture, +1 happiness in Capital)

Bronze Working: Spearman unit, Barracks building, Colossus wonder, Clear Jungle improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – clear jungle improvement
Mini tech – Military Training (barracks can be built, +1 exp for new units for the city)
Full tech – Spearman unit, Barracks building, Colossus wonder, Clear Jungle improvement
Post mini – advanced bronze weaponry (+10% damage for all ancient units)
Post mini – advanced bronze shields (-10% damage taken for all ancient units)
Post mini – Spear throwing (spearman can attack adjacent tiles without taking damage but with only 50% of attack damage)
Post mini – Bronze mining tools (+1 hammer from mines)

 

[Seek]

Agriculture: Farm improvement

Spoiler :

Mini tech – reveals wheat on map
Mini tech - can build farm improvement (no bonus)
Full tech - can build farm improvement (with +1 food bonus)
Post mini – irrigated farm land 1 (+1 food for tiles directly next to rivers)
Post mini - irrigated farm land 2 (+2 food for tiles directly next to rivers, bonus research to engineering) requires irrigated farm land 1
Post mini – crop rotation (+1 food) requires calendar tech
Post mini - steppe farming (can build farms on hills) requires masonry?

I may be wrong, but I believe that all civs start with the Agriculture tech, so having pretechs for it would be impossible.

Also, one thing I noticed with having many of the associated techs revealing the resources they improve will mean that on turn one you will not see any resources. Which essentially means that you cannot build a second city because you would have no idea where the good cites are. So I think that may be a bad mechanic. Also, not terribly realistic, because people exploited the natural resources in an area before they started domesticating said resources. But all in all,

 

[Col Mustard]

I may be wrong, but I believe that all civs start with the Agriculture tech, so having pretechs for it would be impossible.

Oh ok, I didn't realize that is how the tech tree is going to work. Well, if thats true then I'll just not have the pretechs for agriculture, just the post-techs.

Also, one thing I noticed with having many of the associated techs revealing the resources they improve will mean that on turn one you will not see any resources. Which essentially means that you cannot build a second city because you would have no idea where the good cites are. So I think that may be a bad mechanic. Also, not terribly realistic, because people exploited the natural resources in an area before they started domesticating said resources. But all in all,

Maybe I'd make it so that the basic resources within your capital cultural borders are already revealed. I dont know if that'll be necessary though, I'll have to wait and see on sept 21.

 

[falloutboy14]

The same premise could be added to units as well.

Gunpowder for example:
Mini tech – allows most basic gunpowder unit
Full tech - allows standard musketeer (+2 strength from basic version)
Post mini – allows bayonet musketeer (+1 strength from standard version; +50% vs melee units)

Might require the addition of multiple types of a unit, graphically. But could make the shorter length scenarios more interesting. If you think about an American Revolution scenario, this could be used to add more unit-types to the game.