Tech tree rat's nest..

[Zophos]

CS slingshot usually refers to one of the two cheap ways to score Civil Service, specifically to swap into Bureaucracy (either by getting CS as a free tech from the Oracle, or by postponing the research of Masonry, and using a Great Prophet to lightbulb CS).

As I understand it, the concept has evolved a bit. The original CS Slingshot involved the following elements, in approximate chronological order:

1. Research Priesthood, and start building the Oracle.
2. Research Writing, and assign two Scientist specialists in your capital
3. Researching Code of Laws

The idea was to time it all so that the Great Scientist pops just before you got Code of Laws, which happens just before you complete the Oracle. (It was OK to have them all happen the same turn, too). Then you take Civil Service as your free tech and build an Academy with the GS, and you have a research monster in your capitol.

As you might guess, this is hard to pull off timing-wise, and harder to pull off at all as you go up in difficulty. And with patch 1.61 (and Warlords), the value of chopping trees pre-Math was sharply reduced, so that it is extremely hard to assign two specialists AND get enough hammers to nab the Oracle. At this point, I think most would not consider assigning the scientists as essential to the slingshot, so "CS Slingshot" usually refers to simply nabbing CS with the Oracle.

The "Alternative CS Slingshot" is the second one mentioned by VoU above - you take Code of Laws from the Oracle and wait for a Great Prophet to pop (the Oracle gives GP points, and if you nab Stonehenge, you also have GP points). If you have also researched Writing, and both Meditation and Polytheism, but NOT Masonry, then the Prophet will lightbulb most of Civil Service (say, 80% or so), so that you can research it in just a few turns. This is easier to do on high difficulty, because you don't delay building the Oracle for anything.

There are other variants, as well - with Ramesses (Egypt/Warlords), it is possible to get a ridiculous number of Prophet points, and actually lightbulb CoL AND CS with Prophets, for instance.

All of these slingshots will ramp up your commerce in the capitol, but come with heavy opportunity costs - you have probably stunted your expansion, and may well have to backfill other techs you've bypassed. And, as VoU states, the rest is just a matter of how to use this advantage that you've created. Heading for early maces is popular (since Civil Service is one of the two techs needed), and Alphabet is usually a high priority as well, to help with backfilling techs through trading.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

i want to be clear on the "CS slingshot" though. do you go for Civil Service to get Bureaucracy and then Nat'lism (onward to Cavalry), or is there more to it than that?

I go for the slinger to get maces...

 

[Sisiutil]

I go for the slinger to get maces...

Getting Civil Service early gives you three big advantages:

1) You can run the Bureaucracy civic, which gives a big boost to production and commerce (and therefore research) in your capital.
2) You can chain-irrigate tiles, allowing you to produce more food for larger cities (and/or more population for the whip) and, if you want, more specialists.
3) Once you get Machinery (which Bureaucracy should help you research) you can build Macemen, the medieval era's version of the all-purpose Axeman.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

1) You can run the Bureaucracy civic, which gives a big boost to production and commerce (and therefore research) in your capital.

3) Once you get Machinery (which Bureaucracy should help you research) you can build Macemen, the medieval era's version of the all-purpose Axeman.

this seems to work out to a mace every three turns.

I wasn't undercutting the importance of the Bureaucracy civic; one needs it for early war with maces.

now for my questions, say you've done the CS slinger one way or another:

do you build maces outside the capital or do you just keep up on the city improvements?

do maces really need to be supported by cats?

and how do you work all of this in if you are a protective civ?

 

[Sisiutil]

do you build maces outside the capital or do you just keep up on the city improvements?

It depends upon city specialization. The one city where I usually never build any military units once the classical era is on the wane is the science city, which is often (but not always) the capital. Even if the capital isn't the science city, bureaucracy really helps it complete wonders--so if there's one I really want, I'll build it there rather than units.

do maces really need to be supported by cats?

Almost always. By the time Maces are available, most enemy cities will have defenses of 40% or better, lots of defenders with the 25% fortification bonus, and several may have walls as well. Once you attack the AI with Macemen, it will typically bee-line to Feudalism for Longbowmen. And given the AI's penchant for placing its cities on hills, you're facing a very tough nut to crack.

You don't HAVE to use Catapults... so long as you don't mind sacrificing a lot of Macemen instead. Catapults make more sense as a sacrificial lamb, since they'll do collateral damage in their death throes. Plus they can remove the city's defensive bonus.

and how do you work all of this in if you are a protective civ?

Not sure--I don't have Warlords yet!

Theoretically, though: if you're playing as a protective leader, your Archery units get Drill I and City Garrison I automatically. I usually include at least one Crossbowman in a Medival stack as protection for it, and this adds to his capabilities. It also makes him flexible, since he can very effectively serve as the first city defender for a captured city. As he earns promotions, I'd lean more towards Drill, however. I prefer to use Longbows as permanent city defenders.

 

[Pantastic]

Aside from Churchill, the protective civs in warlords have a UU that modifies your optimal playing in the timeframe around beurocracy. Korea's UU is a cat that gets +50% vs melee, so you're probably better off getting construction ASAP and rushing with cats (backed by spears to kill any horse archers). China's UU is the cho-ko-nu, which lends itself to rushing to machinery instead of CS. Japan's UU is an improved maceman, so you'd want to rush to CS even more than other people. You can't really look at one part of a civ like its traits in isolation.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

You can't really look at one part of a civ like its traits in isolation.

i know; I think that's why I have trouble with this game (besides my idiocy)

now i'll digress, yet again.

At what point does one learn alphabet? How? Self research or pointy stick?

Thanks to sisiutil and phantastic for putting up with my questions.

As an illustration of how I tend not to see the forest for the trees, I just rediscovered that the culture slider can be used for border expansions. I was doing it with buildings and artists. Like i said, i'm a nut case.

 

[Pantastic]

At what point does one learn alphabet? How? Self research or pointy stick?

In most games, I research alphabet myself. Usually my initial research is to get bronze working, hunting (for spears), archery (if no bronze), and any worker techs I think I'll need on the way, then writing-alphabet. If I'm founding a religion (and so focusing on the religious tree early) I might skip alphabet entirely and trade for it, especially if I'm trying to CS slingshot or something similar. My research path isn't very standard though, I know a lot of people leave alphabet until later.

(FYI, bronze working alone won't cut it for defense in warlords - in vanilla you can just build axes and hold anyone off, but in warlords someome will build a bunch of chariots and roll over you.)

As an illustration of how I tend not to see the forest for the trees, I just rediscovered that the culture slider can be used for border expansions. I was doing it with buildings and artists. Like i said, i'm a nut case.

I never use the culture slider for border expansions, I'd much rather whip/rush a theater and run an artist than take commerce out of research/cash in my developed cities. Plus you need steady production of culture if there's a border clash; once you stop throwing research into culture, another civs borders will push back those nifty expansions.

 

[cv431410]

The "Alternative CS Slingshot" is the second one mentioned by VoU above - you take Code of Laws from the Oracle and wait for a Great Prophet to pop (the Oracle gives GP points, and if you nab Stonehenge, you also have GP points). If you have also researched Writing, and both Meditation and Polytheism, but NOT Masonry, then the Prophet will lightbulb most of Civil Service (say, 80% or so), so that you can research it in just a few turns. This is easier to do on high difficulty, because you don't delay building the Oracle for anything.

There are other variants, as well - with Ramesses (Egypt/Warlords), it is possible to get a ridiculous number of Prophet points, and actually lightbulb CoL AND CS with Prophets, for instance.

These two are good strategies for CS, but they are not "CS Slingshot" at all.

If you are lucky, the two scientists coming with library will pop up GS soon who can give $800 or so for Civil Service. That can be considered third strategy for CS.

 

[Zophos]

These two are good strategies for CS, but they are not "CS Slingshot" at all.

The original post at Apolyton which described the use of a Prophet to lightbulb CS refers to it as the "alternate CS slingshot", and the usage has become common both there and on this forum. Though, to be fair, the original post describes the technique assuming that you never get the Oracle at all, and just research CoL normally. Others have pointed out that you can alsograb both CoL and CS with Prophets, if you can generate two of 'em very fast (usually with a PHI civ).

At this point, at least as I've gathered from context, the word 'slingshot' seems to refer to any technique that gains you an expensive tech much earlier than you would normally have it, typically by use of one or more free/lightbulbed techs coupled with a focussed research path. In some ways, it doesn't matter which route you use to get there - the point is that having Bureaucracy available so early is a giant boost to research.

(prods horse..."I think this one's dead, sir!")