Tech Tree Revisions

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I envy your skills.

JosEPh

Yeah, so do I Vokarya!

 

[Vokarya]

The timeline for this section dips back into the 1960's to pick up the last space-related techs, then goes into the 1970's and early to mid 80's.

Date Tech Event
1961 Space Flight Yuri Gagarin, first human in space
1965 Fuel Cells Fuel cells used in Project Gemini
1966 Composites Nomex developed
1971 Space Stations Salyut I launched
1972 Guided Weapons First use of laser-guided weapons
1977 Genetics DNA sequencing developed
1979 Communication Networks First analog cellular phones
1983 Gene Manipulation First genetically engineered plant
1983 Stealth F-117 Nighthawk in operation
1986 Superconductors High-temperature superconductors discovered

Modern-6 is a fairly sparse level with only 4 techs. Composites is probably the most critical tech here.

Tech Old Prerequisites New Prerequisites
Composites Organic Chemistry + Satellites + Semiconductors Satellites + Semiconductors
Genetics Medicine + Modern Health Care + Superconductors Biological Warfare + Ecology + Microprocessor + Modern Health Care
Guided Weapons Advanced Rocketry + Automatic Weapons + Laser + Radar + Semiconductors Advanced Rocketry + Laser + Microprocessor + Modern Warfare
Space Flight Computers + Satellites Satellites + Vertical Flight

• Composites lost Organic Chemistry simply because it was redundant.
• Genetics loses Medicine (redundant) and Superconductors (too far forward), but picks up Biological Warfare (which currently doesn't lead to anything), Ecology, and Microprocessor (I want some computing power here).
• Guided Weapons loses Automatic Weapons and Radar that are part of the chain that leads to Modern Warfare, swaps Semiconductors for Microprocessor, and adds Modern Warfare.
• Space Flight no longer needs Computers (part of the path to Advanced Rocketry and then Satellites) but gets Vertical Flight because VF is another tech that should lead to something else other than Unmanned Air Vehicles and Skyroads.

Modern-7 has a few more techs. By far, Communication Networks is the chokepoint to the rest of the Modern Era.

Tech Old Prerequisites New Prerequisites
Communication Networks Composites + Globalization + Guided Weapons + Space Flight Fiber Optics + Globalization + Guided Weapons + Satellites
Fuel Cells Composites + Recycling + Robotics Composites + Space Flight
Gene Manipulation Genetics + Globalization + Semiconductors Genetics
Space Stations Microprocessor + Robotics + Space Flight Recycling + Robotics + Space Flight
Stealth Composites + Globalization + Supersonic Flight Composites + Modern Warfare
Superconductors Computers + Laser + Refrigeration Composites + Refrigeration

• Communication Networks was a tech that I felt needed a little swapping around of prerequisites. Satellites made more immediate sense than Space Flight and I thought Fiber Optics would be an important part of communication networks as well. I kept Guided Weapons so that GW would lead to something.
• Fuel Cells got Space Flight as one of its prerequisites because spaceflight was one of the first uses of fuel cells. Fuel Cells predate both Recycling and Robotics so I dropped those. Composites and Space Flight together will keep it in the right place on the tech tree.
• Gene Manipulation lost its other prerequisites because they were redundant.
• Space Stations was the tech I felt really needed Recycling. Space Stations also comes along at the same time as Microprocessor, so I dropped Microprocessor from the prerequisites.
• Stealth got two of its prerequisites melded into Modern Warfare.
• Superconductors is another tech I find very difficult to pin down. I think the term could be applied to cover three separate developments: low-temperature superconductivity (requiring liquid helium cooling), discovered 1911 and explained in the 1950's; high-temperature superconductivity (requiring only liquid nitrogen cooling), discovered 1986; and room-temperature superconductivity, which is Transhuman Era if it is even possible at all. I went with the middle option, especially to put some distance between Semiconductors and Superconductors. Composites was the natural prerequisite choice.

So that's this section. Three more posts will cover the end of the Modern Era: one for levels 8 and 9, one for the thirteenth new tech (Cyberwarfare), and one for the overall map and recosting scheme.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I'm eagerly waiting for the next posts

 

[E_Pluribus_Unum]

WOW!

Great work!

Some suggestion :

• new ancient era tech : Ancient astronomy. It is largely determined the ancient life (religions, navigation, etc...)
  - has no prereq (level 1 , put beside Ritualism )
  - gives Stonhenge (moved from Mysticizm)
  - prereq for Mysticizm
  - prereq for Seafaring
  - maybe OR prereq for Mathematics
• Cartography should be researched earlyer (at Classical Era). Requires Mathematics and Ancient astronomy
• Elephant riding and Horserback riding? They are too specific. They should be merged into Animal husbandary. (raise the cost of AH?)
• Horse breeding? It's too specific. It shoud be just "Breeding" and also it shoud give +1 food bonus for Butchery (or something like that).
• Mounted archery? It's too specific. It shold be merged into Military training.
• Armoerd cavarly? It's too specific. It shold be merged into Armor crafting.
• Standing army civics should be get by Constitution.
• Computer Networks should depend on Microprocessor and Fiber Optics
  - Microprocessor moved to Modern-4, prereq : Semiconductors
  - Fiber Optics moved to Modern-4, prereq : Laser
  - Computer Networks moved to Moder-5, prereq Microprocessor and Fiber Optics, gives The Internet (moved from Fiber Optics)

 

[Vokarya]

WOW!

Great work!

Some suggestion :

• new ancient era tech : Ancient astronomy. It is largely determined the ancient life (religions, navigation, etc...)
  - has no prereq (level 1 , put beside Ritualism )
  - gives Stonhenge (moved from Mysticizm)
  - prereq for Mysticizm
  - prereq for Seafaring
  - maybe OR prereq for Mathematics
• Cartography should be researched earlyer (at Classical Era). Requires Mathematics and Ancient astronomy
• Elephant riding and Horserback riding? They are too specific. They should be merged into Animal husbandary. (raise the cost of AH?)
• Horse breeding? It's too specific. It shoud be just "Breeding" and also it shoud give +1 food bonus for Butchery (or something like that).
• Mounted archery? It's too specific. It shold be merged into Military training.
• Armoerd cavarly? It's too specific. It shold be merged into Armor crafting.
• Standing army civics should be get by Constitution.
• Computer Networks should depend on Microprocessor and Fiber Optics
  - Microprocessor moved to Modern-4, prereq : Semiconductors
  - Fiber Optics moved to Modern-4, prereq : Laser
  - Computer Networks moved to Moder-5, prereq Microprocessor and Fiber Optics, gives The Internet (moved from Fiber Optics)

I keyed Computer Networks to ARPANet, which is before Fiber Optics (1969 vs. 1970). So I'm not moving it; you can have networks over cable without Fiber Optics. Fiber Optics has ONLY the Internet right now, so I don't want to take that away; empty "filler" techs are really bad. Semiconductors and Microprocessor need separation as well. I don't want them right next to each other.

I'm also not getting rid of any technologies at this time, except to remove the two absolute "do-nothing" techs of Cold Fusion and Global Governance. Neither of them seems to do anything, so I'd like to get rid of them. There are a few prunings that I would like to do, but I don't think now is the time.

As far as Cartography goes, I think it is placed where it is to keep map trading from coming too early; the Medieval Era is where map trading becomes available in regular Civ as well. I'd be really more inclined to leave it where it is.

Eventually, I'd like to move the Standing Army civic from Chivalry to Leadership, but I'm not very much in favor of reducing Chivalry to just the Mailed Knight unit. I wouldn't want to do that without giving Chivalry something else in return.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm eagerly waiting for the next posts

In the interests of not overwhelming anyone, I prefer to space things out a little and post once/day, 2-3 levels at a time. That said, it's been a day since my last post, so let's finish out the Modern Era.

 

[Vokarya]

The last two levels of the Modern Era run from the 1980's to 2010. There are several technologies that are currently in the Transhuman Era that are getting removed backwards to the Modern Era.

A couple of name changes, first:

• Biofuels becomes Biomaterials. I think the technology can stand to be broadened out a little and cover more than just fuel. The Biofuel Refinery is simply the first application of this tech.
• Cognitive Robotics becomes Machine Learning. I think this is a little less obscure of a name and makes a point that this is a tech on the road to Artificial Intelligence.

The timeline for this section, including which techs get pulled backwards:

Date Tech Event
1982 Derivatives Development of the FIRE economy
1982 Unmanned Air Vehicles UAVs used in Lebanon War
1983 Biomaterials Biodiesel fuel in production
1984 Magnetic Levitation First commercial maglev system (Birmingham airport)
1984 Superstring Theory Green-Schwarz mechanism
1985 Nanotechnology Discovery of fullerenes
1985 Virtual Reality VPL Research founded
1986 Neural Networks Learning representations by back-propagating errors
1991 Knowledge Management Nonaka publishes The knowledge-creating company
1996 Cloning First cloned mammal (Dolly)
1997 Machine Learning Mitchell publishes Machine Learning , formally defines term
1998 Quantum Teleportation First demonstration of quantum teleportation
2001 Space Tourism First paying space tourist (Dennis Tito)
2003 Cyberwarfare Titan Rain begins
2010 Wearable Computers iPad is first successful tablet computer

Modern-8 practically revolves around Communication Networks.

Tech Old Prerequisites New Prerequisites
Biomaterials Fuel Cells + Gene Manipulation Aquaculture + Fuel Cells + Gene Manipulation + Hydroponics
Derivatives Agricultural Engineering + Applied Economics Communication Networks + Conglomerates + Legalized Gambling
Knowledge Management Communication Networks + Fiber Optics + Virtual Reality Communication Networks + Conglomerates
Magnetic Levitation Composites + Superconductors + (Fiber Optics OR Space Stations) Superconductors + (Fiber Optics OR Space Stations)
Nanotechnology 3D Modeling + Communication Networks + Fiber Optics + Superconductors 3D Modeling + Communication Networks + Superconductors
Neural Networks Computer Networks + Genetics Communication Networks + Genetics
Unmanned Air Vehicles Communication Networks + Vertical Flight + ( Modern Warfare OR Stealth) Communication Networks + Robotics + Stealth
Virtual Reality 3D Modeling + Globalization 3D Modeling + Communication Networks + Counterculture

• Biomaterials is here and serves as a wrap-up for both Aquaculture and Hydroponics.
• Derivatives gets a set of prerequisites that places it in the Late Modern Era instead of the Early.
• Knowledge Management comes along very close to Virtual Reality, so I dropped that. Fiber Optics is part of the prerequisite line to Communication Networks, so that's redundant. Conglomerates adds the "big business" element of Knowledge Management.
• Magnetic Levitation lost Composites because Composites was added to the prerequisites for Superconductors.
• Nanotechnology lost Fiber Optics because Fiber Optics leads to Communication Networks.
• Neural Networks needed a tech prerequisite that placed it in the level that it's at. That's why I swapped Computer Networks for Communication Networks.
• Unmanned Air Vehicles had Modern Warfare rolled into the prerequisite chain to Communication Networks, but didn't require Robotics, so I added that as well.
• Virtual Reality no longer needs Globalization, which has long been rolled into the rest of the Modern Era. Instead, it gets Communication Networks, to represent further advances in computing technology, and Counterculture, to tie that tech into the rest of the tree.

Depending on where you draw the line, Modern-9 could just as easily be Transhuman-1.

Tech Old Prerequisites New Prerequisites
Cloning Gene Manipulation Biomaterials Cyberwarfare NEW Knowledge Management + Nanotechnology
Machine Learning Communication Networks + Fiber Optics + Neural Networks Neural Networks + Robotics + Virtual Reality
Quantum Teleportation Communication Networks + Fiber Optics + Magnetic Levitation Communication Networks + Magnetic Levitation
Space Tourism Communication Networks + Space Stations Communication Networks + Space Stations + Tourism
Superstring Theory Magnetic Levitation Magnetic Levitation
Wearable Computers Communication Networks Knowledge Management + Virtual Reality

• Cloning takes a step up from Gene Manipulation to Biomaterials.
• Machine Learning replaces Communication Networks and Fiber Optics (itself required for Communication Networks) with Virtual Reality, then adds Robotics because it wasn't required before.
• Quantum Teleportation loses Fiber Optics because it's redundant now.
• Space Tourism adds Tourism, which was inexplicably not required before.
• Wearable Computers gets displaced a little further up the tech tree, exchanging Communication Networks for two techs that both rely on it.

 

[Vokarya]

Cyberwarfare is one of the last new technologies. In order to get something workable for the moment, I plan on having this tech use the current Espionage mechanics for now, but this would be a good place for some new mechanics (suicide virus units, perhaps?).

Era: Modern
Prerequisites: Knowledge Management + Nanotechnology
Leads to: Military Robotics
Allows: Hacker (unit), Great Firewall (Wonder)

The Hacker is the third unit in the Spy/Agent chain. It will start with more abilities (including move 3) than the Agent.

The Great Firewall is going to be a Wonder. I prefer the Wonder approach to making it a project for two reasons. Conceptually, I think the amount of hardware and personnel required makes the Great Firewall a capturable building. Mechanically, I can do a lot more with a building than I can with a project. I'm looking at a large Espionage bonus, a smaller Culture penalty, and some kind of benefit towards catching enemy Spy units.

 

[Vokarya]

This is how the Modern Era maps out. The only broken-up level is Modern-5. With 9 techs in that level, that's one too many to cram into a column.

Supersonic Flight Modern Warfare Fuel Cells Biomaterials Cloning
Modern Health Care Jet Propulsion Advanced Rocketry Satellites Space Flight Space Stations Space Tourism
Modern Physics Aerodynamics Tourism Legalized Gambling Composites Stealth Unmanned Air Vehicles Quantum Teleportation
Modern Seismology Vertical Flight Climate Models Superconductors Magnetic Levitation Superstring Theory
Globalization Mass Media Conglomerates 3D Modeling Fiber Optics Guided Weapons Communication Networks Nanotechnology Cyberwarfare
Semiconductors Computer Networks Microprocessor Derivatives
Biological Warfare Robotics Counterculture Genetics Gene Manipulation Neural Networks Machine Learning
Electronics Computers Recycling Knowledge Management
Nuclear Power Ecology Hydroponics Virtual Reality Wearable Computers
Manufacturing Laser Aquaculture

The cost scheme for the Modern Era starts out at 5500, and increases by a flat 250/column.

Level # Techs Cost/Tech
Modern-1 3 5500
Modern-2 7 5750
Modern-3 7 6000
Modern-4 7 6250
Modern-5a 5 6500
Modern-5b 4 6750
Modern-6 4 7000
Modern-7 5 7250
Modern-8 8 7500
Modern-9 7 7750

The target number for this era was 391,500. This scheme adds up to 380,500, which is a 3% difference.

So that's it for the Modern. The Transhuman Era is going to go by faster, because I'm not making a lot of changes there. I don't have a timeline (if I did, we'd be discussing Civ VI right now) and I decided not to mess with the technologies more than necessary. Mostly, I adjusted prerequisites to weave the entire Transhuman Era into one grand tapestry that leads to Future Tech.

 

[E_Pluribus_Unum]

I keyed Computer Networks to ARPANet, which is before Fiber Optics (1969 vs. 1970). So I'm not moving it; you can have networks over cable without Fiber Optics. Fiber Optics has ONLY the Internet right now, so I don't want to take that away; empty "filler" techs are really bad. Semiconductors and Microprocessor need separation as well. I don't want them right next to each other. ...

You are right Semiconductors and Microprocessor need separation, because Microprocessor depends on Semiconductors.

Fiber Optics is independent technology from Semiconductors and Microprocessor and Computer Networks, it should depend only on Laser (Do not rely only on dates on tech order.)

Level4 :

• Semiconductors : prereq Eletronics and Manufacturing (no Computers)
• Computer Networks : prereq Computers (no Semiconductors), Computer Networks building gives +10%
  
  by default.
• Fiber Optics : prepreq Laser (no Computer Networks), remove The Internet, Computer Networks building gets +5%
  
  bonus.

Level 5 :

• Microprocessor : Computer Networks building gets +20%
  
  bonus.

Level 6 :

• The InternetPersonal Computer : new technology
  - prereq Microprocessor
  - some generic bunus (+1
  
  , +5%
  
  )
  - give The Internet project : prereq Computer Networks and Fiber Optics (change from World Project to National Project, change bonuses)

 

[E_Pluribus_Unum]

I'm also not getting rid of any technologies at this time, except to remove the two absolute "do-nothing" techs of Cold Fusion and Global Governance. Neither of them seems to do anything, so I'd like to get rid of them. There are a few prunings that I would like to do, but I don't think now is the time.

Ok, talk it about later. Just for note :
- I can see Cold Fusion in Civilopedia with -1

, but not in tech tree.
- I can also see Global Governance in Civilopedia, but not in tech tree.

 

[E_Pluribus_Unum]

As far as Cartography goes, I think it is placed where it is to keep map trading from coming too early; the Medieval Era is where map trading becomes available in regular Civ as well. I'd be really more inclined to leave it where it is.

OK. No change for Cartography.
What about a new technology Map Making
- prereq Mathematics (and Ancient astronomy)
- Fixed border not allowed without this tech
- requires for Silk Road (currently Silk Road is definiatly available too early)
- until this tech Trade Caravan should get some limits (eg cannot explore or can move only on cart path/road/etc...)
- maybe limited exploration range (limited range from any cultural border) without this tech to all units.

 

[E_Pluribus_Unum]

Eventually, I'd like to move the Standing Army civic from Chivalry to Leadership, but I'm not very much in favor of reducing Chivalry to just the Mailed Knight unit. I wouldn't want to do that without giving Chivalry something else in return.

Rethinking Standing Army. It shold be available in late ancient or early classic era. Ancient Rome has standing army, so the concept and is application is pretty old.
What about Warfare of Sige warfare?

 

[stoferb]

Siege warfare is not ordinary warfare, and the machinery associated with it wasn't very common until late in classical times, just as it is in the game. Before that a siege was more or less to stand outside and wait for a city to surrender simply because it's inhabitants would otherwise starve to death. (unlike the AI, the real armies of ancient times didn't see any reason to suicide against well-defended strongholds if a few months or years of patience would give them victory). It would be cool for land armies to have the same ability to "blockade" a city as ships have, because that's essentially what a siege is without any equipment to breach the walls or the city gates. Don't know how it would affect game balance though.

 

[Combat Wombat]

Space Tourism is a crappy tech at least in name maybe call it Commercial Space otherwise it is to small and insignificant of a change to warrant a civ tech.

Maybe consider a Magnetic Recording(1934) tech in there somewhere. Another older one missed would be the Microwave (not just talking about the appliance).

Transhuman has to start with Fusion>Cold Fusion and High Temperature Superconductors both are perfect gateways out of the modern era.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Ok, talk it about later. Just for note :
- I can see Cold Fusion in Civilopedia with -1

, but not in tech tree.
- I can also see Global Governance in Civilopedia, but not in tech tree.

Yes, those techs have always been there but they were not linked with anything in the real game. I suppose they were the leftover of some unfinished addition. There's no point of having them there, so we'll get rid of them.
As for other techs, I'd prefer to stay them where they are, at least for the moment. When the new tech tree will be finished, we'll do some test and see how things are turning out.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

In the interests of not overwhelming anyone, I prefer to space things out a little and post once/day, 2-3 levels at a time. That said, it's been a day since my last post, so let's finish out the Modern Era.

I know, I know
I appreciate you give everyone some time to think about proposed changes.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

OK. No change for Cartography.
What about a new technology Map Making
- prereq Mathematics (and Ancient astronomy)
- Fixed border not allowed without this tech
- requires for Silk Road (currently Silk Road is definiatly available too early)
- until this tech Trade Caravan should get some limits (eg cannot explore or can move only on cart path/road/etc...)
- maybe limited exploration range (limited range from any cultural border) without this tech to all units.

Now THIS is a VERY VERY nice suggestion! I especially like the last line, but I think this will need some coding that I'm not sure I'm able to do. Any idea/suggestion about it Vokarya?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Rethinking Standing Army. It shold be available in late ancient or early classic era. Ancient Rome has standing army, so the concept and is application is pretty old.
What about Warfare of Sige warfare?

About Standing Army: since this is a civic matter, for the moment I propose to leave it as it is right now. As I've said previously, I'd like to work on civics at a later time. Joseph has already started working on civics and some of his suggestions should be useful, but my idea is to rework the whole civic system, changing names to civics and simplifying effects. Right now, when you change civic, most of the times you don't know at all what will happen. This is something I'd like to change (at least to a certain point). Back on the subject, I would consider Standing Army one of those civics that need to be changed somehow: it's true that ancient Rome had a standing army, but there were no other form of standing armies (AFAIK) until "modern" standing armies which were developed at the end of the Middle Age. All in all, this is something to think about, and I think it's better to do it when we will be discussing about civics.

 

[Vokarya]

About Standing Army: since this is a civic matter, for the moment I propose to leave it as it is right now. As I've said previously, I'd like to work on civics at a later time. Joseph has already started working on civics and some of his suggestions should be useful, but my idea is to rework the whole civic system, changing names to civics and simplifying effects. Right now, when you change civic, most of the times you don't know at all what will happen. This is something I'd like to change (at least to a certain point). Back on the subject, I would consider Standing Army one of those civics that need to be changed somehow: it's true that ancient Rome had a standing army, but there were no other form of standing armies (AFAIK) until "modern" standing armies which were developed at the end of the Middle Age. All in all, this is something to think about, and I think it's better to do it when we will be discussing about civics.

I agree. The only civic change I want to make right now is to move State Church to Scriptures, in order to give Scriptures a second thing associated with it (besides the Scriptorium building), and give a reason to not rush Monotheism and found Judaism if you already have a religion.